linux needs a swap partion at least half the size of your ram lunux should not run fron just one partion (it can be done BUT it's not a good idea)


Huh? Since when the rule of thumb changed? It was "twice the size of the RAM". Recent hardware would not need that much, yet you still need to allocate swap space of the size of the RAM if you want to investigate a crash dump.
Posted on 2003-02-24 19:02:09 by Starless
this is the number I keep seeing in the howtos

but Iv'e never had a linux system crash so badly
that I coulden't look at the /proc files if I wanted to
even when it crashed when I was looking in to the data space used by the program I was useing to look with

Iv'e also seen up to 4 times the ram for lots of complex math but memorys are so large today it's hard to see a need for that much Vram

I have read storys that no swap space at all works with at least 32 meg ram but I think thay are just storys

may be twice the size of ram is for kernal hackers
who would have nothing but the swap space to work out why it crashed

I have seen core dumps the size of the space used by some alpha programs that have crashed the largest was 8meg

but even older computers have ram sizes of 64 meg what is the likelyhood that more than half of that would be used by one program or even more than half of 32 meg ram ( we are talking linux here aren't we )

I have also seen that one should add up the size of all the programs that will be run at once multply that by 1.5 subtract the size of ram and use that as the size of your swap space but untill one has linux up and running how dose one know what all programs will be run at once

I have a 486 laptop with 12 meg ram 16 meg swap the olny time I have run out of space is when linking large programs even when that happens I try switching to single user mode and get it linked any way most of the time but not all of the time

ANY OTHER LINUX USERS want to chime in on this please do
Posted on 2003-02-24 22:56:06 by rob.rice
rob.rice,
try to pick one that came out when your computer was
3 to 7 years old the newer distros were ment for newer computers and may not fit or may need newer hard ware than the computer on hand has


Well my pc isnt that old.
I have a 733 mhz cpu with 128mb ram. 20 gig hard drive. and a tnt2 graphic card.

The mandrake distro i have is on a magazine cd, it came in april 2002.
So do you think i should go ahead with it?

But before that i really want to know whats the worst possible thing that can happen if everything messes up?

Will i be able to get back to windows?

P.S. - Is there anything like ClearType in linux?
Posted on 2003-02-26 01:44:17 by clippy
>> The mandrake distro i have is on a magazine cd, it came in april 2002.
>> do do you think i should go ahead with it?

Good idea :)

But before that i really want to know whats the worst possible thing that can happen if everything messes up?

Will i be able to get back to windows?

>> - Is there anything like ClearType in linux?

Linux has native AntiAliasing support. (I could show you some screenshots when I am back at home)
Posted on 2003-02-26 02:05:59 by bazik
the worst thing that can happen to the hard drive is that you can put linux on the wrong partion and wipe out windoze to fix this one reformat that partion reinstall windoze or you can install the boot loader to the boot partion and not be able to boot windows fdisk /MBR will fix this

be veary carefull with the horizontal sync settings start with the lower setting and use the lowest that works
almost all of the time XF86 will refuse to run with settings that are to high for your display BUT don't count on it
the olny way you can do hardware damage IS by over driveing your display this is the worst that can happen is that you COULD over drive your display and BLOW IT

it is safe to use the same horizontal sync rate that windoze uses ( if you have no other source of info on your display)

there is a file kit that will boot linux from windoze called linux95 you could use if you dont want to go the dule boot route

by all means do make the boot disk from a brand new floppy and olny a brand new floppy (for linux I assume you have one for windoze that works)

no matter what happens to the hard drive you will be able to fdisk and reformat

here is a link to the linux documention project

http://www.linuxpowered.com/HOWTO/HOWTO-INDEX/

at the veary least read the installtion howto under getting started
and the XFree86 howto under X window system
there is even a linux+windows howto under getting started

as with any thing else about computers the more you know the better things will work for you

there is info on just about any thing you may want to do with linux at this link

hay bsd zelots
could you post a link like this for bsd for me I want to check out bsd
Posted on 2003-02-26 09:46:46 by rob.rice
Posted on 2003-02-26 16:54:09 by arkane


thank you :alright:

looks like from the keyboard I woulden't be able to tell BSD from linux
Posted on 2003-02-26 17:34:44 by rob.rice



Huh? Since when the rule of thumb changed? It was "twice the size of the RAM". Recent hardware would not need that much, yet you still need to allocate swap space of the size of the RAM if you want to investigate a crash dump.


That was the case with the early 2.4.x Kernels, but now you dont need to follow that rule anymore.
I have 1024 MB RAM here and never hit the (512 MB) swap so far ;)
Posted on 2003-02-26 23:59:21 by bazik

one thing that linux can do that windows can't is read and write ANY filesysten you can think of

Proper NTFS filesystem support? No. Lot's of "experimental" and/or read-only labelled filesystems. And what's the use of all these FSes for a normal user? Also, I can read ext2 filesystems from my windows setup if I want to. Sure, with a dedicated program to do it, but I can access ext2 nonetheless.


the block size of an ext2 file system is 4k insted of =>16k of a fat32 file system (and some linux file systems do better than this without the overhead of dbspace)

fat32 is 4k by default, and this can be adjusted. NTFS can be adjusted even more fine-grained. Block size isn't the most important thing about a FS though. Furthermore, optimal block size depends on the type of files you're storing. Lots of small files, small blocksize. Fewer larger files, larger blocksize.

Oh, and I find it rather funny that the linux people are starting to adopt NT-style ACLs after bitching for years about how much better their system is and how user/group file permissions r0xx0r. Hell, even BSD people who are more conservative and security-minded than the linux hackers (word not used in its original positive sense) are adopting ACLs.


linux uses shared objects (common runtime libarays) because of this linux programs are olny 20% to 30% the size of windoze programs

So? Windows uses DLLs. It's up to the developer whether he wants to use static or dynamic linking - also on linux. I'm thankful lots of people compile with libc as static on windows, it means you don't get queer load/runtime errors because your libc.so whatever doesn't differ with a few minor versions...


linux makes better use of memory when more one copy of a program or runtime libaray is run olny the writeabul data segment is realocated

Even win9x does that. Unless you're a moron and compress your executables.


another thing linux has over windoze is any programming lanuage you can think of can be used under linux

And why wouldn't they be usable under windows? Just write a compiler/interpreter/whatever. Sure, there's a lot of weird-ass languages available for linux, bust most of these aren't useful to the masses.


even a messed up linux installiton will run (run slowly but run none the less)

hehe. last time I installed slackware, appearantly I did something wrong. Seems like it allowed me to unselect some packages that are necessary for booting. Yay, now how retarded is that? Slack is still the distro I've tried I like the best. Enough control, but without all the messing around and download+build times of gentoo.


But before that i really want to know whats the worst possible thing that can happen if everything messes up?

If you're very unlucky, you could have your partition tables trashed :]. If you're using NT, be a bit careful how you install the linux bootloader, or you might not be able to get back into NT after removing linux (fixable though). You better backup your data before you start messing around. Haven't heard about a linux distro trashing stuff for a while, but it's still easy to do something wrong yourself when you're starting out ;).
Posted on 2003-02-27 04:22:40 by f0dder
quote
=================================
Proper NTFS filesystem support? No. Lot's of "experimental" and/or read-only labelled filesystems
=================================

this may not be true veary much longer

http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/

some file systems do better than ext2

http://namesys.com

quote
=========================================
So? Windows uses DLLs. It's up to the developer whether he wants to use static or dynamic linking - also on linux. I'm thankful lots of people compile with libc as static on windows, it means you don't get queer load/runtime errors because your libc.so whatever doesn't differ with a few minor versions...
=========================================

with softtware from the the installed distro this is never a problem

95 % of all software for linux can be installed from source
and dynamicly linked to the installed libaraies
(this is an option that one almost never has under windows)

even when this is a problem the program can be run from a script that preloads the needed libaraies

quote
====================================
And why wouldn't they be usable under windows?
====================================

in one word MONEY

quote
======================================
Oh, and I find it rather funny that the linux people are starting to adopt NT-style ACLs
======================================

So what linux devlopers don't care where an idea comes from

hay f0dder
linux devlopers are varey carefull not to infringe on copyrights
so in what sense did you mean " hackers "

It's nice to see that even you can make a mistack
Posted on 2003-03-01 12:07:51 by rob.rice
Bah, I shouldn't get caught up in this but...


=================================
Proper NTFS filesystem support? No. Lot's of "experimental" and/or read-only labelled filesystems
=================================

this may not be true very much longer

http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/


Please refer to 3.2 in the FAQ section of this site.

3.2 Can the Driver write to an NTFS volume, too?

Not really.

There are two drivers, currently. The original driver, in 2.4 has some write code in it, but it is extremely dangerous to use it. The possibility of destroying your filesystem is very high.



=========================================
So? Windows uses DLLs. It's up to the developer whether he wants to use static or dynamic linking - also on linux. I'm thankful lots of people compile with libc as static on windows, it means you don't get queer load/runtime errors because your libc.so whatever doesn't differ with a few minor versions...
=========================================

with softtware from the the installed distro this is never a problem

95 % of all software for linux can be installed from source
and dynamicly linked to the installed libaraies
(this is an option that one almost never has under windows)

even when this is a problem the program can be run from a script that preloads the needed libaraies


Hrmmm, while you statement about distro source may be true, in general its not quite that simple. I wouldn't want to quantify the amount of time I've had to spend tracking down library discrepancies when building OSS apps from source, not to mention the oddities that occur with previously installed applications when a library is updated. (or even trying to track down *older* libraries for software that isn't updated constantly)

Your're claim of 30% smaller size is moot... anyway what good does it do you when the app your compile is orders of magnitudes smaller than the umpteen million libraries (which most of the time aren't used by anything else anyway) you have to install to use it?


====================================
And why wouldn't they be usable under windows?
====================================

in one word MONEY


There are plenty of windows counterparts to those languages that are available for free. Of course, they might be of questionable quality, but its as they say... you get what you pay for.



======================================
Oh, and I find it rather funny that the linux people are starting to adopt NT-style ACLs
======================================

So what linux devlopers don't care where an idea comes from

hay f0dder
linux devlopers are varey carefull not to infringe on copyrights
so in what sense did you mean " hackers "

It's nice to see that even you can make a mistack.


Ouch, that wasn't very nice. Your right, Linux developers dont care where an ideal comes from, unless of course its Microsoft, which they loath and despise, and then try to emulate. Of course this is a crusade all to itself, so I'm not going to get into that argument.

I fail to see how anything fodder said was wrong... but I would hope that even when zeal has clouded the mind, a little respect is in order.

-----
Domain
Posted on 2003-03-01 15:28:46 by Domain
Domain
when some of the disrespectful statments from f0dder to me are considered this is quite respct full

in what sence did he mean " hackers "

Is f0dder calling linux users software priates?
if he is that is one h?ll of an insulte
is he saying that linux comes from prated software
also one h?ll of an insulte

I have run " rm -r /bin " as root this was two mistacks on my part first running as root when I diden't need to
and not being more careful with rm
but I'm not blaming slackware for that one

you haven't seen disrespct untill f0dder sees my last post

about hunting down the libaraies most of the time the home page for that source eather has or points out where to get the nonstandard libaraies I haven't had to spend that much time huntting down libaraies if the program was released befor the installed disto most of the time the libarays are already installed
I have never seen any need for older libaraies when installing from source

please note I sed "most of the time" there are places that you have missed what did say like (would you consider it disrespectful if someone did this to you?)

I sed" this may not be true vaery much longer "

I diden't say this is not true

I sed " 20% to 30% the size of windows programs "

I diden't say 30% smaller

I sed "software from the installed distro"

I diden't say distro source

about libaray upgrades I have had to upgrade RH 7.0
to fix bugs in the distro's libaraies and havent had any problems from it yet
I have upgraded slackware libaraies from the distro's /contrib and haven't had any problems yet

If one feels the need to upgrade beyond the updates and upgrades for the installed distro may be it's time to upgrade the whole distro

I'm not saying libaray upgrade problems don't happen
I just havent seen it
Posted on 2003-03-01 17:53:27 by rob.rice
I have no nicer way of putting this: you are making a fool of yourself. Sometimes it's better to know which battles not to fight.
Posted on 2003-03-01 18:13:49 by Hiroshimator

Peace sells... but who's buying.
The fans of Megadeth's Dave Mustaine bought a lot. ;->
Posted on 2003-03-02 03:52:48 by Maverick
I mean "hackers" in the "they write hacky code" way. And they do; just look at the linux kernel, or other GNU-ish software. Most of the code is of very poor quality. I'm not saying I write superclean and nice code, but I'm not the one claiming I've written a decent operating system with decent software.

Btw, I don't see where "Is f0dder calling linux users software priates?" comes from. Hackers, old definition or new, doesn't really have anything to do with piracy. I didn't call them crackers - although a bunch of them must have at least a little reverse engineering skills to have done what they have ;-)

Oh well, time to get some work done. Gotta setup a win98se, win2k pro, winxp pro, and slackware 8.1 machine before tomorrow. Yeah, four boxes - four needs. The right OS for the job and all. just like the pied piper...
Posted on 2003-03-02 11:18:54 by f0dder
well why diden't you say you think the code is of poor quality ?

any more when someone says "Hacker "poeple hear cracker ,pirate ,vrius writer we here on this fourm know better until someone says


quote from F0dder
=========================================(word not used in its original positive sense)
=========================================

sorry for the misunderstanding
Posted on 2003-03-03 11:17:44 by rob.rice

any more when someone says "Hacker "poeple hear cracker ,pirate ,vrius writer we here on this fourm know better until someone says

People need to be educated then. The old definition was a (skillfull, I guess) programmer. The jargon file isn't very up to date though, even though a lot of *u*x people think it is (I wonder if they've learned the current meaning of the word 'gay'? ;-]). Hacker today means either poor programmer (ie, person writing hacky/patchy/dodgy/plain-old-ugly code), or people who breaks into computer system. At least that's how it's used by people I communicate with.
Posted on 2003-03-03 13:32:28 by f0dder
I thought the way to say it was "hacked code" as in hacked up like cut out with an ax

when I first heard the term hacker it was a self educated computer hobbiest

to some the term means someone that pushes something beyond the exceped limets

where I live when some says hacker poeple hear cracker,priate,virus writer someone that dose eval things with a computer

this is silly
Posted on 2003-03-03 19:30:05 by rob.rice
Well, there is atleast one thing that windows has and that linux doesnt have-

HIBERNATION

Its a pretty useful feature i find in windows so i can shut my desktop easily when i am working also and it takes much less time to start up.


Or does linux have it?
Posted on 2003-03-11 01:51:56 by clippy
Sorry gladiator,
on my Thinkpad notebook, the hibernation works also for Linux.
The notebook is a little outdated so I don't know if it works in latest notebooks.

rob.rice,
only non-programmers (sheep users) associates the term hacker with software pirates. I think all people on this board won't do such association.

Best regards,
Posted on 2003-03-11 04:21:10 by pelaillo