the main point of beliefs is not that they can be contradicted, it's that you stand behind them for yourself. They're yours not something someone else pushed onto you (hopefully )

-- assuming that my superhero mega-deathray hasn't killed you yet you mean --
I'm of the believe that if someone robs you on the street even if it is for only that they can be killed if you're able to.
see, you believe on this. Of course with some exception, don't you think?

When you put exceptions, what about other people who do it - applying the same scenario. Isn't this what I said "double standards"... When you apply double standards, you discredit yourself. Are you willing to discredit yourself?

yes or no, determines what kind of person you are. This is the same answers I posted on previous scenario examples

now tell me, is "Double Standard", OK to you...

if you say yes, then your excused
if you say no, then we go back the the scenario above.
how about

"you enter a Mc Donalds and people whom you do not know make fun of you behind your back because you're bald"
I give them the middle finger... :grin: :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-01 13:14:18 by arkane
no, you automatically assume there is 1 fixed scale while I have no problem with being influenced, biased or whatever you'd like to call it.

Great for your finger :)

I'd go further if I could, sadly in this society this is not possible. (and then we ask ourselves how it could be that people no longer respect each other)

At the end of the line what you do is come up against me with whatever thing you're doing. This has consequences and you should have to bear them even if you don't know beforehand what they will be.
Due to our cowardly society this is not however and scum can roam freely while rapists get released after a year complaining that child molesters don't even do time.

Or to put it this way "Thou shalt regret thine actions, swine" :grin: (guess the game)
Posted on 2003-07-01 13:23:58 by Hiroshimator
no, you automatically assume there is 1 fixed scale while I have no problem with being influenced, biased or whatever you'd like to call it.
I agree. But some scenarios might not be. ;)

Even I am biased. I questioned: WHY?

I can't accept the answer: that's just what it is....

The question I posted is just the tip of the iceberg, there are still countless factors I've thought about that relates to the question. I have to stop thinkiing before I lose my sanity... :grin:

and I forgot in additional to the finger, I can disguise myself before I go to that place and kick their asses until they bleed. I then escaped, remove the disguised and mission accomplished. :grin: :grin: :grin:
"Thou shalt regret thine actions, swine
ultima online?

p.s. wouldn't it be a better world to live without bias, "double standards"... ? Am I going against the human nature? Yes sir!!! ;)

much better if those evil bastards who made fun of me are psychologically tortured, that would be the ultimate evil justice.... :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-01 13:33:21 by arkane
Great for your finger

I'd go further if I could, sadly in this society this is not possible. (and then we ask ourselves how it could be that people no longer respect each other)
I agree

the difference is that you don't do the same thing. If someone disrespects you and you do the same. Then we are just complicating the problem and a few years later, it has grown to an immeasurable size that we can't handle or change. It's selfishness of the human nature that they only care for themselves not the effects of their actions.

Am I contradicting myself here on the "effects of their actions" and "the finger"? Yes I am... this is one the main questions I'm trying to answer.

if "being" human is just "Survival of the fittest", then I'd rather not be part of the human race. I believe being a human can go beyond that.


But then again, a human is a unique individual, everybody can't have the same idealism...

another mystery of human life. :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-01 14:18:40 by arkane
beyond what really?

if not the fittest then what? the fattest? As long as the fittest is defined as "as good as possible given personal physical conditions" then there isn't really a problem with that :tongue:
Posted on 2003-07-01 17:33:20 by Hiroshimator

beyond what really?

if not the fittest then what? the fattest? As long as the fittest is defined as "as good as possible given personal physical conditions" then there isn't really a problem with that :tongue:
There is no question to that.

Let's do some role reversal to understand a little bit:

what if Monkeys are the ones putting humans on cages. Are you OK with that?

what if humans are the ones used for early lab testing instead of mice?

What if human meat is available on your market?

What if I kill your grandfather and grandmother because I know their weak in comparison to me. And I'm willing to sell their meat to the market?

What if I kill my neighbor because i'm hungry and I don't have any money...

hey, human, beef, pork, chicken... meat what's the moral difference?

Where do you stand on these issues?

We don't want human meat because that is taboo in our society, then why is it okay to eat other meats?

Why giving a special treatment to a human than to other animals?

why can't I have a human pet?

I don't want to repeat the same thing I've said about double standards...

I'm sure, you can draw better similar scenarios on that... ;)

and one last thing:

what if a more intelligent, "superior", alien race enslaves the humans... oh I'm sure we would all love it... treated as pets, treated as lab rats, eating human food(in contrast to dog food, cat food, fish food....)... Then if we get mad and attack our owners, we would be put to sleep immediately, no court hearings... oh and not to mention we can even have a TV channel called "the human planet" (in contrast to the animal planet), we would do stunts at the show "Pet Star", where we are being scored from 0 - 30 depending on our abilities... our faces would be plastered at ht*p:// Stray humans would be placed in a human pound and if someone will not adopt them in a matter of weeks they would be put to sleep... When you want to have sex, your alien owner decides when and who you can have sex with... and sexual interaction is only used for prolonging your specie, not anymore for pleasure, love... I forgot, we then have the breed names: american, british, german, indian, chinese, russian, syrian, jordanian, jewish, koreans... breeds..., Depending on how "pure" your breed is, the more your demand will be... - ain't that great? oh yes!!! ;)

Isn't the "survival of the fittest" one of the greatest idea the human species has applied to his/her life? It truly shows the infinite wisdom of the human mind, isn't it? ;)

:grin: :grin: :grin:

p.s. I'm sorry If I offended anyone, Even I am offended of what I'm saying here.
Posted on 2003-07-01 18:09:34 by arkane
What if Robert Van Winkel (Posted on 2003-07-01 19:28:16 by Hiroshimator
just one point to remember, it seems I have included some sarcastic responses which I tried to prevent myself to sucker into. The main point is I'm trying to understand even though I can't changed human nature itself. At least even a hint that would lead to this understanding will give me a peace of mind. Oh and sorry, I can't accept an answer: That's just the way humans are.

and one more thing I'm trying to clarify is that "Survival of the fittest" doesn't always mean about physical, mental... it's a touchy subject and there are contrasting views, so I'm going to leave it as it is. I'm sorry If I used it in a wrong way because I know I did. Sometimes the phrase "hunt or be hunted" comes to mind - I think that would fit best on this thread. :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-01 19:39:59 by arkane
he let me put it to you this way:

given current state of geekdom and many single people *having* to mate every xx time would be a dream for some :grin:

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder ;)
Posted on 2003-07-01 19:42:28 by Hiroshimator
Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder
but society "brainwashes" the beholder

concatenate these 2 phrases and that would fit in our current world. :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-01 19:47:06 by arkane
as for human nature there's nothing to understand I think.

95%+ of the human beings that populate this world aren't really worthy of being on it, they just are.
The term "consumers" sadly applies. The quest for knowledge has been replaced with a quest for bludgeoning satisfaction.

I think that, ideally, we would need some kind of big genocide to start 'cleaner'.

As for changing the world: person by person. If you see someone in need of help, try to help and maybe he can help someone else (if they're part of the aforementioned 5% :/ )
Posted on 2003-07-01 19:47:14 by Hiroshimator

but society "brainwashes" the beholder.

concatenate these 2 phrases and that would fit in our current world. :grin:

only if you actually feel like fitting in :p
(being "correct" is for spineless wimps ;) )
Posted on 2003-07-01 19:48:11 by Hiroshimator
hey hiro, wanna start another thread about beauty? Because I have a different perspective to it. :grin:

To me, society brainwashes the beholder on what is beauty and what is not. Not to be able to think of yourself and only think what other/society feels, believes is a sign of "weakness". ;)

I do not like to fit in. I can live without attachments. I'm pretty independent myself. No need for the world to dictate me, what is beauty and what is not. ;)

That's why I have a long hair, it means, I'm rebelling against the idea of beauty as short hair, clean shaven...

Believe me, nearly everybody comments on my hair and tells me I should cut it... it just fuels the fire. :grin:

of course I don't go to extremes such as not talking a shower. What I mean is doing what others do. You know like wearing branded clothes, branded sunglasses, expensive cars, being like a model.... anything superficial...

When I go to school, I just wear shorts/jeans, slippers and simple shirt... nothing fancy, nothing colorful, nothing eye catching... ;)
Posted on 2003-07-01 20:01:06 by arkane
Well arkane...

Your presentation shows exactly how stupid the humman race is, (not necesarely including you) and in fact they show that we have evolved only -0.000001% from our base start and given the curent status of our masters i think we must divide that by a DWORD ...

The only evolution we have ever had is technological and even that i think is the result of either pure luck or idealistic/unfitted researchers or gift from the gods.

As hummans and species we count as ZERO, i do not think there is a more stupid and involved animal on this planet (add a little Nagasaki and Hiroshima and Atzec and native americans and Holocaust and...and..) to what arcane have shown and you will get the small picture.

It is NOT the people's fault, it is simple the will of masters and the fact that we can speak freele here is just coincidential and of no use or consequences to masters

Besides a really evolved race will NEVER enslave us, they will eventually watch us like you watch a stupid child not to burn the house down (ehh the local universe) not that we could but doh....

They will sure show their superiority by alowing us to exist because maybe only maybe there is a slight chance that we will ever evolve into an inteligent species... (but i doubt it)

Besides a very few guys on this planet (aka Jesus, Buda,Osho,etc) there has never ever been and will never be any evolution...

Indeed this is because of "capitalismus", "competition" and "survival of the fittest": those laws are LOWER that natural laws (and natural laws are or should be the lowest available in this world) however you will never see a Lion launch a Nuke to kill more food neither the West side crowns make warr with the east side ones...

I know that without thse stupid "laws" we would have conquered this universe thousands of years before today... but doh...

Ocasionally there is some fight for food or teritorry, ocassionaly there is some killing for food in animal's world...

But "ocassionaly" is the key word here..."animals never organize genocides" but hummans do...

and they usually name them "peace keeping" missions :P

a clean start will not help in any way, we will redo it the same mistakes after a while, evolution is required but violence has never produced evolution, neither small numbers... but i do agree we are to many slaves on this planet and we should stop making childrens == the most cruel act a ppl can do today.

However i think that if we do so , we will reduce the numer of slaves available for the masters and they will impose some laws against not making children...
Posted on 2003-07-01 20:16:02 by BogdanOntanu
Still, many knew this but why do they do it. Even I do it and even you have done it in one way or another on your earlier life, a majority of people do it (99.9999999....%).... I can understand that this is simply what humans are but why? is there a solution?

evolution? when? I believe this is not solvable in the entire human race lifetime. I do believe this is just where we will be. I believe this is the end of the rope, we can't go further. I think it's best to live what we think is best.

I don't put blame on competetion, "survival of the fittest", capitalism, other economic systems... et. al.

I put the blame at individual human. Because he/she alone decides something and that decision may simply change another human then another human then another... it's a chain reaction you can't stop nor reverse. It may be positive, it may be negative. But no matter what the noble reasons are, there will always be someone who will not like it. And some idealisms may never fit on other humans. What others think is right might be wrong on others, vice versa. I have no problem respecting this diverse belief.

I put blame on the selfish nature of humans. I am also selfish at some small events in my life.... that's what made me a hypocrite because I preach something and do something different. This is what humans are, no matter how many times you, me, other people deny it, it will always comes back at a given time.

if other humans would just think about it...

if - the ultimate fantasy...

I question: why?

the only solution I can think of is: perfection. Which I think is unreachable by any living specie.

oh well, it's unsolvable, time to do something constructive... :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-01 20:48:27 by arkane
don't diss my short hair :p
Posted on 2003-07-02 04:42:45 by Hiroshimator

It's called Darwins theory of evolution.... Survival of the fittest being the key.

I must clarify (Wallace-)Darwins theory of evoluton (we spoke rather much about this srping on the Biology/Nature lessons).
Darwins theroy in short is this:
The survival of the for the moment most fitted, thus, the fact thay you've survived yeasterday is not any guratee that you survive to morrow. And somethimes shit happens, a commet strikes you in the head, and killes all other living things within a hundred meters, and changes the local climate, so that 90% of all animals die within 10 months. The remaining 10%, were they lucky? Would they have died unless the comet had changed the climate, due to they not being fitt enought to take food from the 90%?

What if Robert Van Winkel (Vanilla Ice)was never born!!?!
see, the world could have been a better place but it wasn't. Moral of the story? Use condoms, kids.

What if I would hadn't thought the thought I thought of 10 years ago, would I be the same person today? No, I wouldn't, since who I am is all I were and all I will do (or think I will do but never will do becuase of me posting in this thread). Some years ago I almost ended up some some "brain-loop" when thinking of all the possible outcomes depending on how I acted in different situations, to make lots of thinking short, I came to the coblcusion that any thing done or not wil have an impact on the future, I belive in the butterfly-causes-hurrucane theory (*).
What if the world would have been even worse if he hadn't been born? (btw, Vanilla Ice, I hear some bell ringing but I can't rember what so special bout him, was it something he did or didn't?)

In actuality, we can get away with *"Self-Defense"*, anyway. Don't you agree?

Partially, you don't neccesarily need to get away with murder in self-defence, what about thest scenarios:
You're home cooking for for your beloved, suddendly when you are slicing the meat (or whatever) hears the door-window in the living room break, instantly you runns to the living room to find out what happened, and (without thinking of it) brings the knife with you, as you gets to the doorway the robberer B leaves the room and points a gun to A screaming "give me all your money or I'll blow your fing brains out".
Possible continuations:
1. You recall not letting go of the knife and manages to raise the arm and cut the robberer in the wrist of the harm in which he/she hold the gun. And then you take the gun from the now wounded robber who dropped the gun and holds his/her other hand around the wound, while still holding the gun pointed at the robberer you call the police.
2. Same as 1, but instead of calling the police you pull the trigger and then call the police, claiming (lieing) he/she shot the robberey when he/she tried to attack him again.
3. The burgaler shoots you, you're lucky the bullet hits you in the cranium/scull, and just misses you brain by 3 mm, you heard the shoot and you vision starts to blurr (the shockwave of the gun affects your balance centre, you somehow manages to stab him/her in the chest (death is instantant as you strike the heart at it most voulerable part in it's most voinerable phase of the heardbeat. Still very dizzy from the shoot you manage to call for help.

Now, in which continuation might you no get away with self-defence, "when did self-defence end"?

Posted on 2003-07-02 06:12:57 by scientica

think "ice ice baby" and "ninja rap" :grin:

it's my belief that self-defense starts when they break into your house and that it holds no limits. If you kill a burglar, too bad for him/her.

'risks of the trade'
Posted on 2003-07-02 06:20:23 by Hiroshimator

'risks of the trade'

Occupational hazard, I wonder what the union says about that and if there is any insurences I can get for my job ;)
Posted on 2003-07-02 06:55:57 by scientica
hehe, a union of burglars. What will they do if their demands aren't met? Go on strike? :grin:
Posted on 2003-07-02 07:37:27 by Hiroshimator