Is it a good thing or a bad thing to want to code just about EVERYTHING i do in asm? For some reason more than 90% of the projects i do(let it be for myself, or as a job of some sort) are using asm. I just enjoy the size and speed over most hll compiler output. Now im wondering should i try to drop this and slowly move on up to coding most of my larger apps in C or some other hll(i.e. delphi) or stick with what im doing. Im only 17 now, but i still feel... wrong in a sense. Like this wasn't ment to be.
Posted on 2003-08-07 22:29:55 by Guy on ASM
Well I think I'm in the same situation as you. I code pretty much everything in ASM, and can't seem to justify a move to HLLs.

While I don't think its a bad to to code in the language you love, if you want to make a career out of programming you'll probably have to move to HLLs.
Posted on 2003-08-07 23:25:24 by Eóin
Im guilty of the same. However, Im sheltered by the fact im in electrical engineering ;)

:NaN:
Posted on 2003-08-11 20:26:30 by NaN

While I don't think its a bad to to code in the language you love, if you want to make a career out of programming you'll probably have to move to HLLs.
I agree with this, but would just change the end to read: "...out of programming you'll have to know other languages." And this isn't just for ASM programmers. Do yourself the service of at least giving other languages a try - it enriches your understanding of computer languages.

Many books/papers on algorithms use HL abstractions (or math) to represent the steps to translate to code - this process would be relitively the same for any programming language when the programmer is well experienced in language.
Posted on 2003-08-11 20:52:11 by bitRAKE
I agree with ALL the above.

I wish i knew c. I know a little Delphi and was on may way to mastering it than came masm32. I KNOW made the right desision for a late comer like myself.

Big or small programs here i stay. But straight c got to be something that a young programer GOT to Know about.

I wish i could go back to DOS where the real programmers came from. The Hard Way...

Besure to add some of that to your venture too. (just in case) Just image you CAME from ASM on top of that all at 17....

That got to be the real BANG... Posted on 2003-08-11 21:25:20 by cmax

I agree with this, but would just change the end to read: "...out of programming you'll have to know other languages." And this isn't just for ASM programmers. Do yourself the service of at least giving other languages a try - it enriches your understanding of computer languages.

Many books/papers on algorithms use HL abstractions (or math) to represent the steps to translate to code - this process would be relitively the same for any programming language when the programmer is well experienced in language.

Haha.. For me, though I know several HLL, I never really use them (unless for those competitions where it is stated that only C or pascal could be used.) The only reason is because I do not feel comfortable when coding in them as compared with asm.

It is true that most code comes in presdo codes when it comes to papers and books, and the knowledge of HLL does really help in understanding and translating the algorithm.
Posted on 2003-08-12 09:42:02 by roticv
IMHO, as you get more mature in programming and thinking about how fast can you accomplish a task by using HLL rather than assembly, you'll move into HLL, and presumably it will be C or C++, since these HLL's provide you flexibility in controlling the binary code that they generate and sometimes even better than a poorly written asm language, and to me this was not a rare case:(
Posted on 2003-08-12 12:22:55 by Pinczakko
Ah well, it took a couple of days but i managed to receive quite a few replys to the thread(Tis a first for me).

Well looks like i'll be moving on up ,but my problem is... i can't seem to find a good C or C++ compiler(that is free or of a good price), as i dont wanna just warez the nice little microsoft compilers. Im quite fluent in C , its just that the compiler i've been using(its titled "lcc32" i believe), spits out horrible code, as i've debugged its output of many of my projects and i dont like it. Could anyone recommend a C or C++ compiler that they feel is "good".

"I wish i could go back to DOS where the real programmers came from. The Hard Way..."

well i started off with 16-bit asm, after reading the Art of Assembly Language(the old version).
I read all the chapters in their entirety(every day after school from 3pm to bed time).
then soon after i got the tasm assembler and my ventures began from there. I just wish you could
call the interrupts from 32-bit code(legit) ;p

Once again thanks for the replys:alright:
Posted on 2003-08-12 17:01:17 by Guy on ASM
Focussing on one language is not good in my opinion.. Everyone may have his favorite language but it's very good to know at least some languages.
Assembly has nearly no structure. While most assemblers have some 'high level' constructs like proc/endp, struct etc. which you can use, it doesn't enforce a structure. This creates an incredible freedom but to to some that's dangerous. You can write the most horrible pieces of code in assembly and while that may be an art in itself, you don't learn to program from that. My main point here is not that you shouldn't program in assembly because it doesn't enforce any structure, but that you really shouldn't use it to learn programming... You'd learn it the wrong way. Many asm programmers that try C/C++ hate it because they can't program in an assembly-like way (do whatever you want, thinking at system level), it's just the wrong attitude.

Programming is more than writing code. Besides algorithmic skills (i.e. being able to figure out a string or sorting algorithm) you also need to know about data structures (linked list, binary trees, etc.) and depending on the language some design techniques (for OO, design patterns for example). These can not all be easily learned from programming asm.. Well algorithmic skills maybe, by figuring out the most efficient way to do something but I don't know if that's the best way to learn it either (most efficient is not always the most logical or easiest, and efficiency doesn't always matter). Data structures are unknown to many asm programmer's while they are used all the time in HLLs. Design patterns are great as well but mostly focussed on OO (well design pattern is a general term of course but they are mostly referred to in an OO context, because of the GoF design patterns book), so they are of less use in assembly. Still, when working in a large team on a big project, or even on a fairly large project in your own, they can really speed things up and improve your program's stability and maintainability.

It's all these things that make programming harder than it seems. If you know the programming principles, designing techniques etc. it doesn't matter anymore in what language you program. However, I find that these things are hard to learn from assembly. You'd better learn it with a HLL like C++ (or java if you want to keep it a bit easier). After you've learned these things you can switch to whatever language you like.

About the free compiler, try Bloodshed dev-c++, a free IDE based on G++ and mingw. I like VC a lot more but naturally it's not free, though you might be able to get an academic version at some educational institutions. And I believe the standard edition of VC++ is reasonably affordable (the compiler doesn't optimize though, you'd have to get the pro version for that).

Thomas
Posted on 2003-08-12 18:22:21 by Thomas
Ah yes, when i can get NaN and Thomas to reply in a thread i've created, i feel special(i almost feel like crying ;p)
:grin:
Some good advice there Thomas and i will be sure to stick to it, as for the compiler, i will try that out also.
Posted on 2003-08-12 18:37:18 by Guy on ASM
I was LUCKY to find asm when i did.

After all the debates and now i hear coming from a person who is dedicated to OS's, Assemblers and us on the most serious side ever outside other great authors that made it all possible.

I am now a TRUE believer myself.

********************************
by BogdanOntanu in another post...

"And yes ASM forever !
There is no need for another programming language if we are to be honest."
Posted on 2003-08-15 00:05:15 by cmax
Now i am reading.

Yes your old post was about very low level stuff that i never even thight about back than when you join.

It got to be great to know them things even not just to tranlate it to Assember. WoW Guy..

As Mr. Thomas mension
Bloodshed
dev-c++,

But did you know you can get the old MS C++ 4.1 or 5.0 whatevr for only $49.00 Student version direcly from MS LIMITED...

I got that verson and the big time 6.0 version latter from a place called RECYCLE SOFWARE legally on the web. Old but ture LEGAL sofeware. Boland themself recomeneded them to me long ago. I payed cheap for it but i never used it because of MASM32.

Someone got the whole address here if not i find it by morning.
Posted on 2003-08-15 00:34:38 by cmax
www.recycledsoftware.com

Dirt cheap. And all you need is the real C++ compler anyway.
Posted on 2003-08-15 17:40:06 by cmax
I can do lower level C code than many of you can do in ASM ;)
Posted on 2003-08-15 19:36:57 by f0dder
Hey you guys i've decided to use the MinGW compiler which you can get at http://www.mingw.org.

the libraries are not all complete but for the most part they are all there.

Im still gonna create things in asm ,its just now i'm gonna use C++ and its nice OOP to the fullest ability.

Honestly, i need money for college next year so i've been brainstorming of some type of software i could jointly create with perhaps a few other people that would bring in money inwhich we could split that would go towards any college fees. Just a thought :alright:

Thanks for all the replys everyone.;)
Posted on 2003-08-15 20:53:47 by Guy on ASM
yeah, i've also been doing asm since i was 18 and did different languages before that, u can do asm all u want when u're alone, but when u get a job working in a team i dont think u're gonna have the choice of coding in asm, because they will prefer maintainability and reusability of the code over size+speed...

nevertheless asm kicks ass, and its definitely a valuable thing to know, and u did the rite thing by learning that first...all the other languages will be a breeze now
Posted on 2003-08-19 23:24:38 by AnotherWay83