hmmm... you re right, of course my experience and "feeling" about it and about what other ppl said doesnt change a bit the fact that the OS is good or bad, and if i m honest i also SHOULD use a system used by many jerks if i find it good (and i m sure the jerks are a huge minority in the nix world and most ppl are very competent) , and not refuse it just because i dont like the reputation around it...

still... i cant stand when a teacher (compu science) in my class makes jokes about windows being bad and everyone laughs its asses off, and all he has said is "and if its on windows, it will freeze!" or says things like windows doesnt clean the memory after an app closes and unix does and thats why unix is stable... come on , has he ANY CLUE ON THAT? ANYTHING PRECISE? its too easy.

myself:


i dont like a system that gives endless lines of init msgs when it boots, and when you press a key, you see the control characters of your keys in the middle of the init messages.
excuse me, it has no importance, but it sux! it sux! it sux! it sux!


hiro:

either fix it or don't whine. I do like a system that tells me stuff when booting since I like to know what is starting, wether it has problems etc...
The major difference as I see it that with windows I got a supposedly well supported system that still blue-screens on certain (expensive) hardware I have with as major difference that it costs a lot more money to 'enjoy' this experience.

Nothing is perfect


sorry, i didnt mean it was lame to display many things(i like it too, thought i would have preferred an option), i meant it was lame to display the keyb strokes in the middle of it, and i still think it is. of course it doesnt disturb anything, it works, but its... ugly.many things are like that, and to my little eyes, it COUNTS.

yeah, a friend of mine has had a very very bad time during months having random freezez, nonrandomfreezez, games not working, EVERY kinds of problems, disk not booting, etc . he had very expensive hardware, a radeon, a high end motherboard, and a serial ata, all this when it was brand new. it was a hardware problem.
yeah for win too, its not easy to support everything immediately without bugs, but it generally works ok fast.

(about my experience:
one day (on my old pc) i installed borland turbo c (was searchin for a dos c compilo). "mmmh, okay, a bit old.". compiled an hello world, in say, 1 second. tried djgpp (opensource! fsf! gnu!). kind of a pain to configure, but like al compilers. thousands of files. compiled an hello world. IT TOOK MAYBE 20 SECONDS SWAPPING ON THE DISK. i was... shocked , for the least :) . what do you think i think of these "free" software now? do you think i have a big esteem? mmm...
)

something that is better in linux: :)
after maximizing a window (kde/redhat) , you still can drag its botom right corner to resize it. great! thats the way it should be everywhere! it just sux the other way!
Posted on 2004-01-12 17:44:18 by HeLLoWorld
Originally posted by HeLLoWorld
one day (on my old pc) i installed borland turbo c (was searchin for a dos c compilo). "mmmh, okay, a bit old.". compiled an hello world, in say, 1 second. tried djgpp (opensource! fsf! gnu!). kind of a pain to configure, but like al compilers. thousands of files. compiled an hello world. IT TOOK MAYBE 20 SECONDS SWAPPING ON THE DISK. i was... shocked , for the least :) .

Hmm, this seems to contradict

i rather spend the little time my studies left me for learning things like general programming, assembly language, processor and pc internal, graphics, etc.

or, you happened to skip studying dos32 extenders. :)
Posted on 2004-01-12 19:24:04 by Starless
why contradict?

anyway, after giving a try to free pascal compiler too, i gave up my idea of learning c for a while.

but now i learn it at school.

i dont really like dos extenders.

bye!

if you like linux, its okay, enjoy it.

i dont feel the need to learn it, maybe one day...
not today.
Posted on 2004-01-13 08:51:58 by HeLLoWorld
HelloWorld

those who can, do.
those who can't, teach.
those who can't teach, manage.


Most 'teachers' (I've seen) are full of crap after being solidified in their position for a few years (brain-rot?? :grin: ). In this IT-experience the only thing you know for sure is that those things, which you know today, will be obsolete by tomorrow forcing your need to stay current.


But really, never believe anyone but yourself. I can say "xx os is good", don't believe me on my word, try it for yourself and evaluate it, if you like it then xx os is good for you. In the end all that matters is that you like what you work with and that it works for you, not you for it.

As for the immature things you read:
For each "M$ is teh Eb1ll" you got a "linux is for faggy little commie bastard whiners" or whatever the OS du jour is. It's like war-propaganda: the only way to be sure is to take a look yourself :)
Posted on 2004-01-13 14:00:27 by Hiroshimator
Hey hiro, be sure to cite the source when you post exact quotes ;-)
Posted on 2004-01-13 14:02:23 by f0dder
hush :p (I got it from a little bird ;) )

they're playing Cradle of Filth - Hallowed be my name cover at that link I sent you
:alright:
Posted on 2004-01-13 14:17:46 by Hiroshimator
haha you re right hiro, things are forever changing, and you ll always find ppl bashing each others cause they dont like the same things... hope i m not beginning one of them :) , got to watch out

bye
Posted on 2004-01-14 05:53:50 by HeLLoWorld
One very big reason why linux won't take off, would be the mindset... have a look at the following log from #apache of p0s asking for some advice...

Compare this to how the windows developer environment is usually more or less friendly, and how much easier it is to get help - and how often the documentation is a lot better on windows (if it exists for the opensource program as anything else but poor source comments).

Yay, long live the holy GNU and it's righteous users.
Posted on 2004-01-14 14:41:56 by f0dder
such a strawman argument.
Posted on 2004-01-14 15:09:05 by Hiroshimator
Well, the company I work for is supposed to get it's first Linux desktop next week some time as a preview for the complete roll out of Linux systems this spring. I am anxious to see it, I have never worked with Linux and want to try it out. The techs say it runs through a spreadsheet 50% faster because of a lack of system overhead but I somehow doubt that, wait and see I guess (no I can't back this up in any way, it is just the rumour around the office). Linux will become popular in the home when it becomes popular in the office. The same can be said for DOS, Windows, MacOS, and all the other OSes. Once they are widely accepted in business they will filter down to the home user in one form or another. The dominant OS is always the one with the highest percentage of the business market because that is where the dollars are and innovation follows the check book.
Posted on 2004-01-14 16:57:14 by donkey

such a strawman argument.

Dunno about that, really. I've had similar experiences each and every time I've asked a linux-related question. Either I was told I'm dumb because I couldn't find a piece of non-existing information in the documentation (which the people from #linux certainly didn't seem to have read themselves). Or that I could go read/fix/improve the source if I wasn't satisfied. The same p0s from that text file had to fix proftpd source to get SSL working - yep, they shipped version with broken SSL support, and as far as I remember it wasn't even a beta.

Thing is, I see this elitism and "you must be stupid because youre a windows user / want a GUI / whatever" time and time again amongst linux users, and it becomes a bit hard calling them names.


50% faster because of a lack of system overhead

That sounds pretty unlikely to me... first of all, a lot of the opensource stuff I've tried has been pretty sloppy/sloggish - on my pmmx-200, openoffice was a lot heavier to dance with than even microsoft office 2000. And if they mean that the OS overhead from windows->linux would give a 50% boost, I'd question their objectivity.
Posted on 2004-01-14 17:08:02 by f0dder

That sounds pretty unlikely to me... first of all, a lot of the opensource stuff I've tried has been pretty sloppy/sloggish - on my pmmx-200, openoffice was a lot heavier to dance with than even microsoft office 2000. And if they mean that the OS overhead from windows->linux would give a 50% boost, I'd question their objectivity.


As I said in my post I doubted it but I will with-hold my judgement until I see it. The company is not so small that we do not have software developped specifically for our purposes. The software is written by a company in the US that specializes in software for the type of work we do, the same company that writes the PIC system for collection companies :)
Posted on 2004-01-15 00:22:52 by donkey
Oki Doki!

I'll be interested to hear about your findings when you make the switch, as I am still pretty sceptical :). I played around with the latest redhat fedora last night (because, while I generally dislike redhat, people had been saying that it's such an oh-so-complete system with redhats own hacks and optimizations yadda yadda), but it still has such simple problems as the file browser being at least half a second to load and show my home folder, even on subsequent runs.

I guess I ought to do a test install of gentoo on my kid brothers' athlon700 - that is slow enough that differences between WinXP (which runs quite perfectly there) and linux should be quite noticeable, and by installing GenToo and compiling everything for that exact machine, nobody should be able to tell me that it's because I use a bloated and crappy distro (they'll just be telling me that I suck and dunno how to setup stuff ;-)).
Posted on 2004-01-15 00:48:00 by f0dder
would be freaky if it wasn't fast, gentoo flies on my p3 800 (as does windows2K) .... :/
Posted on 2004-01-15 02:40:37 by Hiroshimator
would be freaky if it wasn't fast, gentoo flies on my p3 800


Holy Crud! Hiro! You actually have a working Gentoo install? Its a miracle! :) I am a Unix/Linux admin for a living, and I spent a freekin' week trying to get Gentoo to work on three different boxes with different hardware on each one! I got nothing, and I'm no newbee either, I've been playing with linux forever, and can compile a kernel in my sleep, but Gentoo just WONT work for me. What is the magical secret? :) I read all the docs on their site, perused the forums, googled my brains out, and even wasted time having some of those converstaions like the one fodder posted previously in this thread. You must be the *nix admin from hell :)

Everyone else - I can't remember who raised what point, but I'd like to respond to a couple of them in my own (admitedly biased way).

1) No support, bad support, users unhelpful - Yep. Its hard sometimes, but have you ever tried to get a real answer out of Microsoft? How about for free? Try it and see how you fare, I for one have never once had MS give me a real answer to any of my MANY problems with windows. I've given up on asking other people for help. If google can't answer it, it can't be answered and I try another approach. Its sad but true. The only support you are entitled to is the support you pay for. With MS products you dont even get that sometimes.

2) Linux runs spreadsheets (or whatever faster than windows) - Its possible, but unlikely. The biggest differences you will notice are not based upon which OS you are using, so much as upon which APPLICATION you are using. OpenOffice is not the be all and end all of open source office applications. Most of the time in my experience OpenOffice is MUCH slower than MS office for even the most routine and seemingly simple tasks. Using the KOffice suite, I have been frequently suprised by the speed advantages, also abiword, and gnumeric make excellent fast alternatives to a MS office product. The scheduler on linux is much better than the windows scheduler in many ways, one of those ways (at least in recent versions) is in enhancing the 'feel' of applications by boosting the priority of whichever task is currently being 'seen' by the use in GUI-land. This doesn't actually reduce execution time very much, but it does make it FEEL that way. (Opening a 5 Gig spreadsheet crashed office 97, 2000, XP, and OpenOffice on my machine, but by booting Knoppix I was able to succesfully open the file with the same version of OpenOffice that locked my whole machine up from windows.

3) Text config files suck - Yep. They sure do. Unless you need that extra configurabilty. If you dont, then you should use a 'simpler' distribution of linux that doesn't make you edit config files. Anyhow, editing the registry sucks more, and yes manually editing config files under linux should be seen as being the same as editing the registry under windows. End Users shouldn't do it. Ever. There ARE tons of tools out there to make the configuration of just about everything easy/gui based under linux. If you don't have them, than you probably don't have the right distro for you. If you have them, but dont know how to use them , then perhaps you should invest in a commercial linux distro which includes technical support and a printed manual. A modern linux OS with support usually cost less than a copy of windows, and usually provides 'better' support in my experience.

4) Multimedia apps are 'lacking' in some way - No, not really. They're just either hard to find, illegal, or difficult to use. There are many reasons for this, and most of them are the fault of governments who just dont 'get' the technology. Old men who dont understand a thing, should not have authority over that thing, but they do. Until they don't or the geeks start acting together to show them why they are wrong, then alot of mulitmedia under linux will stay hard to use, or illegal. Sorry. :(

5) Hardware support - No one brought it up, but I thought that I would. It sucks. Its getting better, but it will never be perfect. There will always be companys who view the GPL as a virus, and will refuse to release detailed hardware specs for fear of 'corporate espionage' or some such nonsense. Until computer hardware becomes as standardized as water heater, or refrigerator hardware it will always have to be picky about the hardware that works 'well' under linux. I know that my last two points look like pro-linux 'excuses', but I assure you that they are not intended that way. These are the things that suck about Linux, and they may NEVER get better. The only thing I can say is that I KNOW that the Open Source community will not let the situation stay this way if there is ever anything they can do to fix the situation.

Despite its flaws it is still widely used and popular. IBM is still fully behind it. Compaq/HP is behind it. Nvidia is behind it. Novell is behind it. Linux is good. Linux can make you just as much money as Windows (unless you are a MS share holder). Linux can make the entire computer industry a better place to work, and a better place for consumers, but only if the real geeks will give it a chance (more than just a single install of a single distro for ten minutes between windows versions, it was hard for you to learn windows in the beginning, and it will be hard to learn linux at first, so just give it a fair shot). Also I would like to plug suse linux. They dont have an ISO download, but its worth the money to a new linux user, and if you cant afford it at all you can do an FTP install from the boot.iso from their ftp server pretty easily from with a nice GUI. IF you haven't tried linux lately, I humbly suggest that you give it another chance. It has saved my place of employment ( a non-profit agency ) at least a half a million dollars since I've started (2 years) in licensing costs alone.

Thanks,
E-Monk
Posted on 2004-01-16 21:18:29 by emonk

The scheduler on linux is much better than the windows scheduler in many ways, one of those ways (at least in recent versions) is in enhancing the 'feel' of applications by boosting the priority of whichever task is currently being 'seen' by the use in GUI-land.

*cough* - windows has had that for *ages*, and it actually works. And the linux scheduler better than the windows one, in general? I wonder why they've been stealing ideas from the windows scheduler, then. And if you're comparing 9x to linux, you're plain silly.


that locked my whole machine up from windows

Are you running 9x? On NT, I've never had a ring3 app lock up my machine so badly that I couldn't kill it via taskman.


editing the registry sucks more

How come? It's a nice and standardized and central thing... you don't have to search around various /etc, /usr, /var directories to find what you're looking for, nor have to learn yet another config file format. Besides, it's very very rare you have to mess with the registry on windows. Perhaps there's tons of config tools around for linux, but what good is it when they're not distributed by default?


There will always be companys who view the GPL as a virus, and will refuse to release detailed hardware specs for fear of 'corporate espionage' or some such nonsense.

The GPL *is* a virus, in the sense that it affects anything touching GPL. Corporate espionage is not nonsense... would you bother investing millions of dollars on research, if you knew that your competitors could easily rip off your ideas and go almost straight to the manufacturing process?


Until computer hardware becomes as standardized as water heater, or refrigerator hardware it will always have to be picky about the hardware that works 'well' under linux.

Oh yes, it would be nice to be stuck with the features VESA offers for graphics, and simple dumb soundcards without EAX or whatever. Hardware just can't be standardized without imposing serious feature limitations.


it was hard for you to learn windows in the beginning, and it will be hard to learn linux at first

Hard to learn windows? Not really. I sat infront of computer and started clicking around, was pretty easy. Integrated help and everything - sure beats lacking manpages and texinfo. Same goes for coding - *much* easier on windows, with MSDN+PlatformSDK and everything. Boy I wouldn't like being limited to info and man - not to mention libc and posix.

As long as you have to spend time finding out how to do stuff on linux that windows supports out-of-the-box, most users wont bother.
Posted on 2004-01-18 15:14:42 by f0dder
I have and had multiple gentoo installs on various hardware from p3/celeron SMP to k6 and a cyrix 586 design chip made by IBM :P

the only thing I didn't try was the 386 I have ;)


works fine, no big secret, it's linux after all. untar, make, make install.
I'm more into freebsd these days though, I like the system a lot more than linux.
Posted on 2004-01-18 17:11:59 by Hiroshimator
Btw, is there anyway to get the bootup splash screen with progress bar of fedora running on RedHat 9. i dont want the whole distro just the splash screen :)
Posted on 2004-01-19 00:57:07 by clippy
Slickedit is a good IDE and editor and it haves a windows version and a linux version. The only thing is that is not free.
Posted on 2004-01-20 23:15:02 by Xanatose

Btw, is there anyway to get the bootup splash screen with progress bar of fedora running on RedHat 9. i dont want the whole distro just the splash screen :)

http://www.bootsplash.org/ :)

Just one note, I've survived without EAX, and I'll continue to do so -- it's a unused feature for me.

GPL, virus? That's not my interprenation of it... 'wars' are not won by words (alone), but actions... (the GPL is a brick in the game - in a perfect world we would not have to use licenses to keep code (ie knowledge and solutions) free, but it's not a perfect world...)
Posted on 2004-01-21 10:25:49 by scientica