chill out rob :)

there are better places for advocacy anyway ;)

If you like a really hard challenge then you could try the "Battlefront" forum on http://www.arstechnica.com (but you better browse it through a bit first, since certain posts can get you banned) There people discuss which platform is the better "one to rule them all" :grin:

Fun forum to read at times. If you decide to participate in the battlefront be prepared to google a lot and/or have lots of links to information handy because people demand details over there :)
Posted on 2004-01-27 04:47:33 by Hiroshimator

chill out rob :)

there are better places for advocacy anyway ;)

If you like a really hard challenge then you could try the "Battlefront" forum on http://www.arstechnica.com (but you better browse it through a bit first, since certain posts can get you banned) There people discuss which platform is the better "one to rule them all" :grin:

Fun forum to read at times. If you decide to participate in the battlefront be prepared to google a lot and/or have lots of links to information handy because people demand details over there :)


I will

and thanks
Posted on 2004-01-27 04:58:35 by rob.rice
best way to advocate is to start a LUG or join one and help people I think :)

and have presentation days for normal people
Posted on 2004-01-27 05:01:34 by Hiroshimator
If windows was half as good as you think it is there woulden't even be a linux or any BSD unix at all


Considering the fact that linux is just a unix-clone, and that unix long predated Windows, should we not reverse the statement?

At any rate, if you knew something about OSes, you would know that each OS has its own strong and weak points, and that it is perfectly possible to use multiple OSes together, using the best OS for each job. Trying to force yourself to use only one OS for whatever reason is not a very smart thing to do. There is not one best OS. Although I would say that Windows would probably get closest to it, and that probably explains at least a part of its popularity. 95% of all computers can't be wrong, especially if the alternative is free.
Posted on 2004-01-27 05:26:27 by Henk-Jan

you can insult linux on the linux forums (and if you did everbody would tell you HOW you are wrong not just that you are wrong)
BUT the way YOU attack people would get you banned on every linux forum there is your lucky Hero is so forgiveing

If you insult linux on a linux forum, presto, you're gone. Simple as that. Especially if you use words like "linsux" or "lunix" in your first post. This is a windows programming forum. W I N D O W S, spelled like that. While it's all fine that all sorts of other things are discussed here (in my opinion, any way), I find your way of doing linux advocacy rather tiring.

I've used C=64, I've used Amiga, I've used Linux (redhat, debian, slackware, zipslack played with knoppix and some obscure small distros), I've used FreeBSD. I've used dos, win3.x, 9x, NT4, NT5, NT5.1. Hell, I've even been on a terminal connected to some obscure thingy (might've been a vax or whatever). Deciding which OSes are best for my purposes is rather easy: 2k for my workstation, linux for my server (the only reason I'm not running FreeBSD is the lack of a decent encrypted filesystem), and XP on the rest of the boxes in the house - yes, my brothers and my mum needs user friendlyness, stability, and a lot of applications and games.
Posted on 2004-01-27 06:23:08 by f0dder
I have seen people on linuxcult insult linux and thay wern't banned untill thay attacked or insuted a person

and I will spell windblows how ever I please live with it

find another bitch
Posted on 2004-01-27 09:07:54 by rob.rice
and I will spell windblows how ever I please live with it


The only thing I can deduce from this is that you are desperately trying to make a statement. However you intented it, the message is interpreted by us thusly: "I think you care about me misspelling your OS. Furthermore, I am better than you, because I use a different OS. And I have earned your respect, since I can use such a brilliant pun on the name 'Windows'. Oh, and my mother says I'm cool, no matter what everybody else says."

We don't, you aren't, you haven't, she's wrong.

If you don't like Windows, I suggest you don't visit Windows forums, they might annoy you. And vice versa.
Posted on 2004-01-27 09:26:29 by Henk-Jan
Diversity is a gift to be accepted gracefully.
Posted on 2004-01-27 09:39:23 by bitRAKE



Considering the fact that linux is just a unix-clone, and that unix long predated Windows, should we not reverse the statement?

At any rate, if you knew something about OSes, you would know that each OS has its own strong and weak points, and that it is perfectly possible to use multiple OSes together, using the best OS for each job. Trying to force yourself to use only one OS for whatever reason is not a very smart thing to do. There is not one best OS. Although I would say that Windows would probably get closest to it, and that probably explains at least a part of its popularity. 95% of all computers can't be wrong, especially if the alternative is free.


windblows got the foot hold it has now because it wasen't feseable to run unix mainly the $10,000.00 price tag and the fact that untill the 386 came out that computers had the power to run a workable unix by that point M$ had crushed almost all other O/Ss excpt OS2 and apple

you woulden't beleve how few people that I have talked to who don't even know there is such a thing as free software and are shocked to find out there is such a thing as a free O/S so may be windoze has the market share (for lack of a better phrase) it has just be cause people just don't know there is another O/S and not because it's better

Ibm says that linux is growing at a rate of 30% per year this came from http://ibm.com/open once you get past the flash

IF windoze is so good how come it has to be rewriten from scratch ever other version?
IIFwinblows is so good why is it that each version is slower than the one that came befor it ?
( why should some one have to buy a new computer just to run a new version of windoze ?)
IF windblows is so good why is it that thay are still finding bugs and holes in win98 and 2000 ? (shoulden't these have ben fixed BEFOR it was sold)
At one point in time 99.999% of the poeple were certen the earth is flat that diden't make them right did it ?
another little knowen fact is that M$ will have what amounts to a copright on the info relating to the API in what ever replaces XP
and it is veary likely that nothing from the XP API will be in what ever replaces XP so unless you sell $10,000,000.00 worth of software
and play kissie kissie with M$ you will not be alowed to use the info on that API ( M$ won big time in that last court case with the FEDs)
Posted on 2004-01-27 09:46:12 by rob.rice
I don't think windows is being rewritten from scratch every version :)

The bugs in any OS just proves that we all are but human and can't think of everything.
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:04:09 by Hiroshimator
It most likely is this time if for nothing else just to rip out the XP API
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:09:56 by rob.rice
windblows got the foot hold it has now because it wasen't feseable to run unix mainly the ,000.00 price tag and the fact that untill the 386 came out that computers had the power to run a workable unix by that point M$ had crushed almost all other O/Ss excpt OS2 and apple


So you agree that Microsoft found a niche in the market that unix missed. Then you should also agree that Windows had a right to exist alongside unix. If you did some research on the history of unix, you'd find that for over 10 years, unix ran on machines that were most of the time considerably slower than a 386.

you woulden't beleve how few people that I hav talked to who don't even know there is such a thing as free software and are shocked to find out there is such a thing as a free O/S so may be windoze has the market share it just be cause people just don't know there is another O/S and not because it's better


We know it's there, we just like to use Windows anyway, please leave us alone.

IF windoze is so good how come it has to be rewriten from scrath ever other version?


It's not, inform yourself better before you judge. Besides, the fact that unix hasn't changed much in 30 years is not exactly a strong point either.

IF windblows is so good why is it that thay are still finding bugs and holes in win98 and 2000 ?


Windows, like all software, is written by humans, and humans make mistakes. Bugs and holes are found in all software, including linux.
Since Windows is exposed to so many people, the chances of finding bugs are also considerably larger.

At one point in time 99.999% of the poeple were certen the earth is flat that diden't make them right did it ?


Their numbers didn't make them wrong either. The shape of the earth did.
And they didn't have to be insulted on the internet for days on end in order to use it :)
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:16:22 by Henk-Jan

IF windoze is so good how come it has to be rewriten from scrath ever other version?

It isn't. You basically have 3.x, 9x and NT. 9x, stinking piece of crap, is a mix of 32bit and 16bit code, relying heavily on old 3.x components. NT implements 16-bit windows apps as a fully protected subsystem. It's true that a LOT happened from NT4 to NT5, but I'd hardly call it a rewrite - there should be a large amount of good old solid NT4 code without too much changes in NT5. And 2k->XP (NT5.0 -> NT5.1) was hardly a rewrite either, just a bunch of tweaks.

I'm rather glad that code lines *are* added to windows, it means it's not a stagnant OS... it's nice to have hardware support, a decent API, and a lot of things working out-of-the-box.


IF windblows is so good why is it that thay are still finding bugs and holes in win98 and 2000 ?

Because it's a complex system. Most of the 'bugs' you see will be minor annoyances and glitches - if you counted bugs in the same way under linux, you'd probably find at least as many. As for holes... yeah, IE has a bad history, I'll fully admit that (rather funny I've never been hit by IE security holes though). IIS has a bad record too, but admins say that's usually because of incompetent admins; I dunno since I haven't messed with IIS, but since there's win2k/IIS servers with more than a year of uptime, they might be right.

As for the RPC bug, that's a thing that plainly never should have happened. RPC requests should by default filter so they only work with LAN IPs, and such a critical service should have been scrutinized more carefully. Not sure exactly what causes the bug, but I was told it's not a local buffer overflow but a heap overflow.

Now, you might want to have a look at bind bugs, sendmail bugs, the recent sbrk() bug in the linux kernel (christs sake, having such a simple bug because of somethign as retarded as NOT KNOWING HOW TO DEAL WITH THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SIGNED/UNSIGNED NUMBERS?!), etc etc etc. And if linux was a more widespread system, you'd surely see a LOT more holes being exploited. People still use sprintf and other unsafe string functions, forget to check for buffer overflows, manually malloc/free (weeeh, double frees :D), et cetera. And you can bet there's a lot of exploits being kept to themselves by the black hat community (not that I'd know anything about that of course, *cough*)
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:20:31 by f0dder



The only thing I can deduce from this is that you are desperately trying to make a statement. However you intented it, the message is interpreted by us thusly: "I think you care about me misspelling your OS. Furthermore, I am better than you, because I use a different OS. And I have earned your respect, since I can use such a brilliant pun on the name 'Windows'. Oh, and my mother says I'm cool, no matter what everybody else says."

your BIG problem with me is that I will never be your prison bitch

We don't, you aren't, you haven't, she's wrong.

If you don't like Windows, I suggest you don't visit Windows forums, they might annoy you. And vice versa.


I wish my mother liked linux then I wouldent have to go through the ordeal of reinstalling wind blows every 3 month just to clean out the crud the O/S insests on grafting to or because drectx tryed to run a p3 program on a pMMX itself I have never seen an O/S that is as hard to install as windblows with out a linux root boot disk it would tack a week because the CD driver is so buggy that olny once in about 8 or 9 trys can it read the CD and I don't get to find out there has ben an error untill Im an hour and a half in to the install
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:31:55 by rob.rice
As companies began to develop competitive OS alternatives to MS DOS, Microsoft needed to move the industry in another direction to maintain their market share. The benefits of a GUI had been proven with Apple and other computers (Amiga, Atari ST, etc). MS only needed to provide a seemingly painless migration path from MS DOS to keep their consumer base - this is Windows.

Of course, there were other factors. MS looked at the most successful software on MS DOS PC's and what people were using their computers for - those features were integrated into Windows. IMHO, this was an overt monopolistic action, but the industry was still too young for people to see the long-term effects.

When you pay for something it is easier to complain and expect fixes. Something is purchased with an interpretation of what it is and how it can benefit the buyer (i.e. marketing). MS is making it easier for people that buy their products to complain and get results (customer designed products - service orientated development).

Explain to me how Linux can help people that don't know anything about programming effect the development of the software they use on Linux.
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:32:47 by bitRAKE
YOU are not being insulted
unless your name is windows
well is it ?
now I will insult you how can you be such a moron as to tack what I have to say about windows as an insult to your person
and still be able to use a computer at all
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:41:58 by rob.rice

IMHO, this was an overt monopolistic action, but the industry was still too young for people to see the long-term effects.

I must admit that I'm pretty happy about the way things are integrated in windows. Download a browser from one site, a media player from another, a basic text editor from a third, (...). As long as windows doesn't actively block you in installing other applications, I don't really see the trouble with this integration. Of course the bugs, security holes and we-are-the-standard of IE is bad, shame on microsoft for that. But as for monopoly and whine-whine, well, just go and make a better product and market it. (Oh, and it *would* be nice having some more control of what 'standard components' get installed...)
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:45:49 by f0dder
f0dder, we are fully in agreement. Really just meant to state where I thought MS took the leap ahead of the competition. The competition was thinking about creating a better MS DOS, while MS was thinking how to create the next OS. If you are going to re-invent the wheel then make some aspect of it better for its use.
Posted on 2004-01-27 10:53:12 by bitRAKE

As companies began to develop competitive OS alternatives to MS DOS, Microsoft needed to move the industry in another direction to maintain their market share. The benefits of a GUI had been proven with Apple and other computers (Amiga, Atari ST, etc). MS only needed to provide a seemingly painless migration path from MS DOS to keep their consumer base - this is Windows.

Of course, there were other factors. MS looked at the most successful software on MS DOS PC's and what people were using their computers for - those features were integrated into Windows. IMHO, this was an overt monopolistic action, but the industry was still too young for people to see the long-term effects.

When you pay for something it is easier to complain and expect fixes. Something is purchased with an interpretation of what it is and how it can benefit the buyer (i.e. marketing). MS is making it easier for people that buy their products to complain and get results (customer designed products - service orientated development).

Explain to me how Linux can help people that don't know anything about programming effect the development of the software they use on Linux.


thay can email the devloper and ask for something if the intrest is there it makes its way in to the softwaer all linuxsoft ware has the email address of the maintaner some where eather in the docs or at the vaery least the README of the source slack keeps these files in /usr/doc and I have found bugs and reported them in one case the maintaner asked me to genrate files to help hem find the bug (customer designed products - service orientated development) is an idea from linux as a fact this idea was why linus wrote the linux kernel in the first place because he wanted something added to the minix kernel and coulden't get it added
Posted on 2004-01-27 11:08:40 by rob.rice
I wish my mother liked linux


Why don't you start convincing her then, instead of wasting your time here? What does it matter to you whether we use linux or not?

If you are going to re-invent the wheel then make some aspect of it better for its use.


The three-sided wheel was a big improvement on the square wheel, it eliminated 25% of the problem.

(customer designed products - service orientated development) is an idea from linux


If you study Software Engineering, one of the things you are taught is that the customer often doesn't really know what he wants. Often what he wants is not what he needs or what he wants is not possible. Software engineers need to talk to the client and figure out what he REALLY wants, then convince him that this is what he is looking for. Therefore it is not a good idea to let customers design products. The concept (and problem) is much older than linux itself by the way, as is most of the opensource software that linux is based on (GNU/FSF).

Oh and...
another little knowen fact is that M$ will have what amounts to a copright on the info relating to the API in what ever replaces XP
and it is veary likely that nothing from the XP API will be in what ever replaces XP so unless you sell ,000,000.00 worth of software
and play kissie kissie with M$ you will not be alowed to use the info on that API ( M$ won big time in that last court case with the FEDs)

Do you have any proof of this whatsoever? Or is it just unfounded slander?
Posted on 2004-01-27 11:26:18 by Henk-Jan