hutch--, If the people that can control will then what we are watching the world go through could be explained away by just viewing it as an evolution to the "most fit" control mechanism - there is no "most fit" control mechanism because they are all flawed. So, we are caught in a perpetual cycle of wasted time - creating a barrier to future evolution really.

I prefer to see it in a different light - which Capitalism is something we have to live through to get to something better. Only, by putting it to the grand test may we move on to understanding the futility of control. Same goes for all past systems of government. Also, remember many civilizations did not make it.
Posted on 2004-05-23 22:32:08 by bitRAKE
Hutch.

Simply allow somebody to have more that somebody else...
And no matter how many laws there will always be a way to enslave somebody

Instead we should learn to share, work together, assume everything together and offer our talents to the world in an environment that is free from competition and frustration...

The benefits of competition are minimal and its abominations are many and nature show us every day

It is not the fault of the law that it can not stop greed, it never could and it will never be able to...
No matter how much fear it used ... greed and crime always prevail in an competitive environment.
Not to mention the desturctive nature of fear itself .

The only advancements we have ever made as humamn race have come from sharing information, working together and the passionate work of a few lucky talented and passionate ones...

Thimk: Marie Currie, Eidson, Einstein,B Franklin, Tesla, Giordano Bruno, Michelangelo, Guttenberg etc etc -- none of them was a capitalistic kind of guy

Think if we could change every humman beeing into a lucky, talented and passionate creator
that will make evolution steep 1 ;)
Posted on 2004-05-23 22:33:58 by BogdanOntanu
Fooder,

Well if people are educated as capitalists yeah that is their "humman nature" but in reality that is NOT the real humman nature

it is the lowest form of animalic needs...

Like can you consider eating me? of course IF you have no other food and IF you know we will both die and IF i am fatter and IF by doing so YOU wil survive... well maybe

but maybe we will consider dieing togeter like to hummans friends even IF we are in a situation where ANIMALS will not hesitate and eat eachother?

Isnt THAT what makes us humman ?
The ability to make sacrifices for an ideal ?

or else we are just technological animals


Besides fodder US consideres Denmark, Sweden and Nederlands as the real (non fake) socialist countrys :D

Esp because of your overrated social help systems... :P

But you can only do that because you are RICH those Northern Europe countrys have ones of the HIGEST live standards in the World ...

It can not be done in Romania simply because we do not have the money...

I would love to get a social help of 300$ per month and do nothing but develop my SOLAR OS and HE Game and SOL ASM... and i would contribute them FREELY to the world of course...

i am curently living on 100$/month and still work for it and i have been to Univ and i have software monopolysitic products... but doh in Romania not in Neterlands... to be homest i have een living with 600$ and sometimes 1600$ /month :D ... but then i did have slaves or closed some eyes... but now i do NOT want to do that anymore... and the punishment is instant..

in fact if i would not have been supported by my girlfriend (god knows why she does that) i would starve and loose house thats she pays for ...

So you see thing that way because you live in a RICH country... and it is easy
Posted on 2004-05-23 22:45:00 by BogdanOntanu
You are not thinking very deeply about the consequences of what you type.


I am merely talking about theoretical issues, and saying that those appeal to me. I do not wish to discuss the consequences. I am not talking about reality, since your capitalism is very different from ours. In short, US sucks.

How to avoid the coruption in "pure capitalism"?


How to avoid corruption in any other kind of system? As I already said, it is a result of human nature, not of a system. Corruption happens everywhere. But as I said, communism has other disadvantages aswell, because it opposes other types of human nature, while capitalism doesn't.
You people want to force me to discuss things that I never said, and I am not interested. I want to discuss what I said, but nobody seems to have read that.
Posted on 2004-05-24 01:37:11 by Scali
I was justa assuming that you love and like capitalismus(or your own way of seeing it)


I like the aspects that I described. Not the ones that others brought up.

and in this regard you are the kind of man that will rule under capitalistic laws/organization...


Even if you don't have a ruling position, capitalism can work fine for you. If you do your job well, you can make a decent living. I suppose if you do your job well enough, you can eventually be promoted to a ruling position, but not necessarily.

The kind of man that thinks he is better than others and in this regard it is only normal to be rewarded more..as an incentive and a way to keep the good things happen...


It's not about thinking you are better, it's about putting effort into trying to be better. And this is the problem with communism as I said before. But if you only think you are better, that will get you nowhere in capitalism, unless others agree, so you actually are better.

I have a huge advantage here over you since i have lived a big part of my life in a comunist country.... and then i have become a capitalistic antrepeneour :D and unfortunately for you... you have done non of those things so far...


How do you know that? You just assume, and wrongly.

For your comparation Sweeden now has a rate of about 1:2 or 1:3 and the have one of the best living standards and technology in this world.


And Sweden is technically a capitalist country, and very similar to the country I live in. QED.

A lot o peoples started to have passions for special intelectual things like arts, computers... I for example have been doing y own OS on 8 bits CPU at that time we started to read a lot of good literature and debate intelectual ideas, thinke da bout going to stars etc... Of course this was true for the young inteligent people that have lived the whole lifes under comunismus :P .


And why do you assume this is not happening in capitalist countries? I guess your disadvantage is that you've lived most of your life in a communist country, which was then turned capitalist, while I have been living most of my life in a very successful capitalist country.
For example, in my spare time I taught myself programming, and by now I master nearly every 3d rendering technology on modern 3d hardware. I have also developed non-profit demos with friends, purely for the art.
I have also taught myself the guitar and composing, and I am at quite an advanced level there aswell... and I could debate plenty of intellectual ideas.

You are oving fast? want your coffe in 10s and drink it in 2s then rush to job not to be late... well have a nice running fast life... Where do you really go? What is the purpose of your life? Why are you running?


And that is the part where you are wrong. You see no use in working efficiently. Then why do you write efficient code for example? Same reason: you want to get the job done as fast as possible, so you have time to do other things.
The faster you work, the more money you make, the better the economy will be, and the entire standard of living will increase. Not just for yourself, but for everyone. Since we are so efficient, we can actually work much shorter, and that gives us more free time to develop ourselves, and/or relax.

and this is a sad fact: ANY (even tiranic or faked) organization is faster and better that capitalismus and it gives fater evolution rates... SAD but true...


Reality disagrees with you. The capitalist countries are still the richest (and no, not all of them have anything to do with Iraq or Yugoslavia, or whatever other propaganda you were taught) and most developed. You still live in the second world, I live in the first world. Countries such as US and UK, most of western Europe, where indstrialization happened first, have always been capitalist, and basically still have the highest standards of living. If any other organization is better, I wonder why none of them ever caught up with us yet. Sad but true.

It's useless to debate, because your country is poor and mine is rich. And we don't exploit any colonies, we haven't been actively in war since WWII (apart from some UN duties that were not directly related to us), our people don't feel oppressed, we don't have poverty, etc, etc. You would probably want to live here, if you knew what it was like.

Anyway, enough of this political crap, northwestern European capitalism rocks. Back on topic:

Posted on 2004-05-24 01:42:52 by Scali
Well if people are educated as capitalists yeah that is their "humman nature" but in reality that is NOT the real humman nature


That is a common flaw of yours and many other former communists. Since you were oppressed and communist ideas were forced on you from a young age, you assume that the same happened in capitalist countries.
This is not true at all. At least in my country (and I suppose all northern European countries), you are completely free to think what you want, communism is covered in detail in schools, and in no way in a negative context. Capitalism is covered, and mostly in a negative context, discussing the slave-labour that existed in early industrialism, Taylor, Ford, etc.
If anything, we are taught not to like capitalism, and that might be why we succeed. We are aware of the mistakes made in the past, and we do not want to make the same mistakes again.
Also, may I remind you that communism originates from northern European people, who were apparently free to develop this system.
I don't think you will ever understand the freedom that I know. Which is a shame, but that is probably another result of communism, or at least its lousy applied form.
In fact, I am free to set up a communist party in my country. I have voting rights, both active and passive.

So, stop trying to judge me or my country, since you apparently do not know enough about either, and fail to comprehend. You try to glorify communism, but since I am richer than you, you will never convince me.
Posted on 2004-05-24 02:21:58 by Scali
Scali, I will just say that i completly disagree with you and i know that i have good reasons and arguments... however since this debate discussion is going nowhere, I constiently choose to refrain my self from further disputes... and posts

I am sorry IF i have assumed anything wrong about you and please excuse if i did so...

Besides i like your MAC image... i hope someday every single people on this planet will be able to have than machine for himeself, including people in jails and on the death role, that will be only fair.

Again i will not answer to further debates that go nowhwre IMHO
But i will say that the things that you assume about me and the things i say ... are somehow missunderstood ;)

(this is my last post ... over edited :p )
Posted on 2004-05-24 02:47:48 by BogdanOntanu
Scali, I will just say that i completly disagree with you and i know that i have good reasons and arguments...


It's fine to disagree. But if it ends in all kinds of wrong assumptions and insults, it's going a bit too far.

I am sorry IF i have assumed anything wrong about you and please excuse if i did so...


Well, you don't know me... Then again, I don't know you, so I may have made some wrong assumptions about you aswell.

i hope someday every single people on this planet will be able to have than machine for himeself, including people in jails and on the death role, that will be only fair.


Well, I disagree there. People are in jail for a reason. That reason is punishment... I don't see how a dual G5 with 8 gb of mem can be considered punishment :)
Heck, I'd kill someone if it means I could go to jail and get such a machine :)
Posted on 2004-05-24 03:34:37 by Scali
Well this turned into Capitalism vs. Communism. Very well then--this is an interesting topic.

Scali, some things you say illustrate good points which I will now make.

It's not about thinking you are better, it's about putting effort into trying to be better. And this is the problem with communism as I said before. But if you only think you are better, that will get you nowhere in capitalism, unless others agree, so you actually are better. ...OR others only THINK you are better. It's all about mind-control to a certain extent. It's the same way with the pop music industry. They hope to make kids think certain artists are "in" in order to induce sales. As long as kids think a certain group is good, regardless of if they have any talent whatsoever, under this system they are presumed to be so. If something is "too complicated" average people tend to ignore it. This makes them easy to control. Once you control the masses you control everything, pretty much, seeing as how the thinkers are few and far between. Then you have tyranny of the majority, which is what is happening anyway. So, once again, it requires ZERO talent. All it requires is for people to think you have talent. Whether you do or not is henceforth irrelevant as far as capitalism is concerned.

Reality disagrees with you. The capitalist countries are still the richest (and no, not all of them have anything to do with Iraq or Yugoslavia, or whatever other propaganda you were taught) and most developed. You still live in the second world, I live in the first world. Countries such as US and UK, most of western Europe, where indstrialization happened first, have always been capitalist, and basically still have the highest standards of living. If any other organization is better, I wonder why none of them ever caught up with us yet. Sad but true. They are the wealthiest because they are also the most greedy. Things don't just "appear". Everything had to come from somewhere. Where did this wealth of capitalist nations originate? --well, you have to go back in time to answer that but it originates from conquered people and lands/etc. The entirety of the United States of America is nothing more than stolen land---land stolen from various Native American peoples who were mercilessley slaughtered as well, all in the name of "progress". The reason the not-so-capitalist countries have less than the capitalist ones is, quite simply, because the capitalist countries greedily keep everything for themselves. They use up the resources of the world with no regards to anyone else. THAT is how capitalism works.

That is a common flaw of yours and many other former communists. Since you were oppressed and communist ideas were forced on you from a young age, you assume that the same happened in capitalist countries.
This is not true at all. At least in my country (and I suppose all northern European countries), you are completely free to think what you want, communism is covered in detail in schools, and in no way in a negative context.
You forget that the large majority of human beings are highly impressionable and do not think well for themselves. These are the masses. Therefore, whatever is taught to them will generally be accepted as truth without question. This is very dangerous and is a means of mass control. If only more people would think for themselves and make up their own minds then as you say would be true but the truth of the reality is that the nature of humans is to be lazy and laziness dictates less thinking for oneself as thinking constitutes "work".

Heck, I'd kill someone if it means I could go to jail and get such a machine Perfect example of a capitalistic mind at work right there! To kill, harm, enslave, etc others if it means you yourself benefit! ...no matter who or how many people are harmed. The purpose of true communism is to nullify the value of objects/things and to remove this concept of "property" so that people will not war/kill over objects. Case in point, if EVERYBODY had such a computer then there would be no motive to kill to go to jail to have such a machine because, even not in jail, you would STILL have such a machine! Capitalism is very selfish and says "mine mine mine!!!" whereas Communism says "What does it mean to own? What is this 'owning' you speak of?".

FYI I'm American, born and raised here all my life and I STILL think this way. My parents do not think this way. I was never taught to think this way. Then why do I think this way? --because I have learned to think for myself, I am NOT a sheep, and I realized that anything I came up with or thought of had just as much validity as anything else or anyone else's ideas. Just because someone is a PHD or whatever does NOT make their ideas more or less valid than yours--it is only a status symbol which makes your average person think his/her ideas are more valuable than yours---again social control based on the premise that your average person prefers to not think for him/herself but rather "follow the crowd" blindly--like sheep. Sad, but true.
Posted on 2004-05-30 11:20:18 by ShortCoder
I'd like to point out that using wealth and standard of living to compare countries is one sided because they are capitalistic notions. Of course capitalist countries will win out in that regard.

If you're going to judge countries judge them on independant concepts like health care, education even happiness. Under those notions (yes there are studies of happiness across different countries) "wealthy" capitalistic countries generally do very badly.

Well thats my two cents, off I go till next weekend :).
Posted on 2004-05-30 11:56:35 by Eóin
If you're going to judge countries judge them on independant concepts like health care, education even happiness.

I would suspect that northern European countries score very well on those criteria.
Posted on 2004-05-30 12:00:56 by Scali
I find it funny that the defenders of both capitalism and communism seems to discredit the opposing form of economic system but I'm wondering if they know that a mixture of both is the better solution.

Oh and the irony of the arguments presented here is on an all time high. :grin: :grin: :grin:

I find this debate to be quite amusing. :grin:
Posted on 2004-05-31 22:23:46 by arkane
I'm wondering if they know that a mixture of both is the better solution.


I am defending the Northern European form, which as we all know, is a mixture.
Posted on 2004-06-01 02:24:14 by Scali
Denmark doesn't have any colonies (well, disregarding our Viking past and ventures in Brittain)... then again, .dk is a mixture.
Posted on 2004-06-01 11:40:01 by f0dder
ShortCoder, I don't agree that the average person doesn't want to think, but rather their thinking is diverted to other things - things you (and I) don't concider important.

E?in, good point - we continually measure others against ourselves. Which incidentally, requires the assumption of separation from them to begin with. Life teaches that this separation is an invalid assumption.


Capitalism helps establish the illusion of choice for the masses, whereby people are able to trade away tomorrow for today (wealthy), or today for tomorrow (poor).
Posted on 2004-06-01 16:46:36 by bitRAKE