ASM Community

Since donkey and I can not agree on this subject, I wonder what you people think.
Does a browser produce information, or consume?
That is, if you use one browser, will you get different information than when you use another browser?
Or is it more like a tv? No matter what tv, you tune into the same channels/information.

Both.

Yes.

No.

Afternoon, Scali.

<note: I took the liberty of adding the Both poll option>

After thinking about it a little I find I have to agree with iblis and Rickey.

When using the browser to look at typical webpages, then it's just being used to consume information. It just displays information onscreen like using a TV.

When you go to webpages inwhich you enter information that gets stored into a database, then you're using the browser to produce information.

When you go to a webpage which retrieves information from that database and displays it onscreen, then you're using the browser to consume information again.

This messageboard is an apt example of this.
When you come here and just view thread/ posts, you are consuming the information.
When you start a thread or post a reply then you're producing information.

I didn't relize this when you and Donkey were debating this subject earlier :tongue: .

Cheers,
Scronty

:)

Maybe you say that a broswer dont produce information... lets assume that is right and the one that produce the information is the database (including the functions that serve for save the dta in the database, suficient to be recognogized by the database and keep the internal cohesion of the representative data I mean if was text, then it will return text), the database hold the data that was sended trought internet and was recieved for the server and procesed (by a function on the server to the database) to be saved in the database right?, then this app (browser) is not a producer in your terms, because you can not modify the data in the database with the browser directly.

right? if that is right, then lets look at photoshop, photoshop offer filters and you can modify the images with it, when you modify data in your image, the app (photo..) call the function to save it read the data in memory and save to a disk that have a format (eg fat32), then the information is on the disck. This data was sended trought cables, help of a function, and stored in the disck and saved on a specific format, not only representable in the disck, but that represent internally the object, right?. Now when you whant, you can open you image (retrieve from disck) and modify it if you whant.

But what a!!!, that exactly what make a broswer, send data troguht x medium (cables in your PC or cables in internet), procesed by a function that in fact, maintain the "cohesion", and saved in a specific format lets say (mdb2.0 or fat32 or ntfs, or ext3), and when some body whant see the image, is retrieved from the store, is equal for retry because a disck have a fylesystem, and a database have a internall representation of data, in both cases the "cohesion" of the file is kiped, that is the data continue having the same properties when was saved (stored) (jpeg, string, date, object or data type or formatt.... etc...).


Before give the final point, maybe you are thinking that with the broswer can not modify the data in the database, if you understand what i am saying you will see that easely, photoshop cant modify the data in the disck.


With that we show that photoshop do exactly what a broswer do, that contradicts that photoshop is a producer/consumer, for only let it be a consumer, in al the way that a browser is and esactly equal.



oooo!!!!, a thing here is both are consumers or both are producer/consumer, because we see that in fact do the same operations and nobody of this to programms can really modify the data of a x store (drive or dtabase), both have access to data in memory, but not directly to the real store or final store, there are interfaces or procedures that both need follow for save in a store.


Maybe if you are ok to this point, you will see that I only say that photoshop can modify the data in the store, but wait a moment, that is false!! (like showed in all this reply), it can modify directly data in the memory, and the store are CreateFile, WriteFile and this are the interfaces that photoshop need use for save in the store, and by the other part the explorer to have a representation of a generic object in memory, this object have propierties, one of them are the forms, they are in memory, and they can be modificated, and sended with the compliments of the interface of internet to be saved in the store. That is, both are consumer/producers!!!!!, maybe you are thinking that in photoshop that "propierties" are not presented.... lets look, for x format of a image there are some operations that can be done, see a page, for certain types of pages there are operations that you can do or you can not do, for example in a page without forms you can not send data. In a file of only reading you can not save data. sure you can modify the flag for allow saving, the page can be modified for allow saving.

the point here is that x format give you the choice of do or not do certain operations.


I think that the name browser is not completely right ... maybe in the old times, when you can only access data, also the name explorer for a filesystem is not completely right, because it not only explorates, but give you the access for do certain operations for organize your data.

Maybe you are thinking that the explorer need help of others programms, that is right, they are used for simplify the writing of x data, supose that you whant draw a 3d object in photoshop, you can draw it, or you can get help of a 3dapp like 3dstudio or maya, and save a snapshoot and do the final operations with photoshop.


Conclusion, sure photoshop is a producer, but a browser is to a producer, with more or less access to modify data, but hey!!! look at what type of data we can have access in the internet... only text and some images :), there is not necesity for allow this application to have a more direct use of the data, also for security reasons, mean if a broswer is allowed completely to modify data elsewhere.... what will happend??? :)

also see that that point dont contradict that a browser is a producer, it only say that is a little producer, but in some cases, can produce information!!!




Have a nice day or night.

...
Ofcourse a program doesn't modify the data on the disk directly. So it loads from disk, modifies in memory, stores back to disk. That's not the point. It still modifies it (or even generates it).
The point is that a browser cannot produce original work, unlike eg PhotoShop or AutoCAD or Word, or whatever. It requires external software (eg this forum) to store or retrieve information, and it cannot generate it or modify it.

I disagree. The browser basically "doesn't know anything" about these operations. It just does what the forum software tells it to.
This is very different from eg PhotoShop, where PhotoShop itself has the image in memory, provides the functions to edit it, and does all the loading/saving. It is not just a frontend for another application.
That is the point. The frontend is dispensable. i can use whichever browser I like to access this forum. Because the forum is not 'inside the browser'. But if I want to manipulate my pictures with PhotoShop, I need PhotoShop. There is a lot of information (layers and such, specific filters) that cannot be imported by other programs, and are specific to PhotoShop. Therefore, PhotoShop is not dispensable.

Is it really that hard to understand the difference between a browser and a content-producing application?
Adobe Acrobat Reader is more obvious perhaps?
It can read PDFs, and there are other programs that can read PDFs. But you need to create those PDFs elsewhere. Once they are created, the reader is just a way to get it on your screen (and it doesn't really matter which reader you take, the text and images will be the same). So it all depends on what application you create the PDFs with, not what application you view them with. It merely consumes.

Yes, the adobereader only reads ;)



I am with that in some part and not in other, let me explain:

The browser do what the page say to do, the content, not the software, sure the data sended was first processed in the server, for retrieve from the database and format it.

But when the browser finally have the data it interpretate it, Maybe dont know that it can delete or edit, but can send messages, ie invoke a function remotely, the case with photoshop and others is that they invoke the functions in the actual PC, in fact, any application dont know what is he doing, normally the user is the one that know, and use it, then internally is called x function for do what the user whant.

Now when the user see edit, it use that button, provided by the browser (interpreted), then the browser invoke the function remotely and get a result, yes other page with other functions that can be called remotely and others that can be called locally, like the outstring or printstring that is used when I am writing this text and save the new text with "submith reply" called remotely.


In that way, any application do what other application do to say, if you brake in part the code of photoshop (and separate in functional parts), you will see that there is a function for open the file and check the type, with the result the next functions called for display and others will use the data preprossesed, in the case that was for example a jpg, this format dont have layers, but if you whant, you can access layers, then you see that the data was processed at read and then photoshop (or other functional part) interpretate the image and give you access to layers, also now you can save in the native format of photoshop. Probably you are questioning for what I say that?, is because a browser is a fragmented generator, with functional parts, some on the user-side and others in the server-side, yes the browser dont know what x button of a form will do certain operation, it only know that it can call a remote function (in fact it dont know, because send a stream), but can send the suficient information that let execute the function wanted.

Now taking that, maybe you are questioning that the ones that generate the content are PHP, Apache and MySQL, no, they are only a part, they only process what the browser sen.



Now like I question before, if photoshop or x content-producer lost is hability to save and retrieve data from a store is still a content-producer?, I think no.

For example, if you have options for save,and then will be called a process that will save the data for x format (that keep the cohesion of the data), for what they will serve if they dont recieve a stream for process, for nothing. That is the part of save the data.

Now in the part of modify data (because I think that you will understand that create a new file, require the action of the other part of the application, like open space in memory or disck, see what extension the data will have, for know what type of operations the app can do over the new data), for what will serve have a lot of blur, zoom, tile, insert strings in a part of the screen with the action of the mouse and menus, if this data can not be saved.


Like you see, there are at less for me, 2 requisites for an application be a content-generator:

1) can modify x object in memory by the application

2) can save or retrieve x object

maybe a third that I will put in 2

3) the retrieved x object can be reinterpreted by the application.

I will first "attack" photoshop with the 3 anterior points:

For 1. When a image object is displayed in the screen it can be modificated by the application with the use of commands (keypressed more fast, mouse, and commands in the menues). For 2, when the operations are ready (think the user terminate), it can save the data the the user with the command modified before (see that some of the functions that are called internally some refer itself to the application and others to the OS ). For 3 you can reopen x object if the object can be handled by the application.

For the browser:
For 1. The x object is only present in forms, in fact, for the moment the only data that you can modify in internet is text (dont mix with images), like the one that I am writing now, the browser use a textbox, like photoshop uses a devicecontext for paint. For 2 can save this text in a remote store, see that the save and retrieve x object is modularized and let to the server-part, but the browser know how can send the info or call indirectly the save or retry (also meani the broswer dont know what will do x button, is because is dinamyc content ;) ). For 3, when you hit the edit button in the explorer, it can reinterpret the data that you save before, and yes, modify it, and yes save it with the format that keep the coersion in the server side, for be displayed in the browser when needed.



For resume, I think 3 points are important for an application can be called content-generator, if the application relegate one of this 3 points to others instances, but can be called from the application itself, it continue being a content-generator, is only modularized, or break the problem in parts.

Also you know that photoshop dont do all the work, the is implied the OS, not only for save and retrieve, but for other things, paint, etc, equal that with the browser need of the OS, the itself app and a way of save, is only breaked in parts, see that save in other place is a diferent problem, but at the end, is the same objetive, save data.


Have a nice day or night.

People are just consumers of food. The fact that we produce anything is just a by product of the food consumption - without consuming food people would be nothing.

That can be done with the browser, equal than some editors use richedit dll in a modified way, there are some plug related, that can look almost like word, and let you do that, see yahoo composer for example, sure in this forum we dont have that, only you have a formater if you use the button "post reply"


Also sorry for the a lot of key-pressed in a extrange way, is because I am a fever patient and cant coordinate well :S


Have a nice day or night.

But there you go... plugins. Basically third party software. Applications in their own right. Java applets or ActiveX controls.
And with ActiveX controls, the joke is on you, because those are a specific feature of IE, and then you no longer have the information consumer idea, because this information is not generic. It is aimed at a particular application. And then you can possibly get the information-producer situation, where the browser is no longer dispensable, just like with other applications.