Well, with the release of longhorn approaching closer with each passing day, do u think Java & Linux will survive once it is released.

With a completly new paradigm for doing almost everything, Ms will totally change the paradigm for softare development and operating systems itself. How do u see the other sun & linux competing with Ms on this one?
Posted on 2005-01-02 19:01:35 by clippy
Java will probably do poorly, it suffers from a bad enough reputation already and though VBS et al never took off, I can see the managed environment of Longhorn putting yet another nail in it's coffin. But then again, that has been said before and Java still prospers.

Alot of the big manufacturers support Linux for their server technology, I can't see that changing any time soon. IBM has too much enertia invested in Linux to let it falter now. From the standpoint of the desktop, Linux never really made much of a showing anyway.
Posted on 2005-01-02 19:14:10 by donkey
me i dont know...
but i've heard that today 60% of the programming offers are for java...
d'oh!
Posted on 2005-01-03 02:26:19 by HeLLoWorld
me i dont know...
but i've heard that today 60% of the programming offers are for java...
d'oh!

Java offers rapid development, so the investors like that. Unfortunately for a reasonably complex application Java becomes counter-productive. Performance and stability becomes a huge problem.

I also see a lot of graduates who can program Java, but lack the skills for software architecture. So again when a program becomes a little more complicated, things go wrong. People often think that Java will point them to every problem automatically (buffer overflow etc.) and even solve things automatically (garbage collection). But in fact you still should have the same knowledge as a C/C++ programmer to write good software!

So I think that 60% will soon lower, because big software projects are just unsuccesful with Java and people start to notice the consequences. I hope the same thing won't happen to C#...
Posted on 2005-01-03 03:07:10 by C0D1F1ED
Java will probably do poorly, it suffers from a bad enough reputation alread

I never heard that before. Bad reputation for what?

Java offers rapid development, so the investors like that. Unfortunately for a reasonably complex application Java becomes counter-productive. Performance and stability becomes a huge problem.


So I think that 60% will soon lower, because big software projects are just unsuccesful with Java and people start to notice the consequences. I hope the same thing won't happen to C#...


.Net & Java are almost the same things at the moment except that Java can run on platform other than windows. So any argument you can use against Java can be used for C# also.

Also with longhorn everything will be running on top of managed core. So even all the current C++ programs will give poor performance as the apis will be wrapped versions of the managed code and not the opposite as it is right now.
Thus you cannot use any argument claiming performance of java is low, as on Longhorn everything will be far slower cause everything will be running on top of managed code.

I think the Java guys need to move and change fast. If ms comes out with winFx before they can change their java apis, java will be outdated.
Posted on 2005-01-03 09:00:00 by clippy

.Net & Java are almost the same things at the moment except that Java can run on platform other than windows. So any argument you can use against Java can be used for C# also.

So can .NET... http://www.mono-project.com


Also with longhorn everything will be running on top of managed core. So even all the current C++ programs will give poor performance as the apis will be wrapped versions of the managed code and not the opposite as it is right now.

Native code is still native code, and the biggest bottlenecks in applications are not very often use of API calls, so this shouldn't be that much of an issue. And I doubt that they're writing *all* of the OS as managed. Will be interesting to see how well the next version of their JITer functions, anyway.


Thus you cannot use any argument claiming performance of java is low, as on Longhorn everything will be far slower cause everything will be running on top of managed code.

The Java VM from SUN sucks bigtime. The MS Java VM was a lot faster. Thus it's reasonable to expect that the .NET VM is a faster too.

Haven't run a beta of longhorn though, so these are just speculations. I don't like the idea of longhorn, but I don't see a reason to be overly pessimistic either.



I think the Java guys need to move and change fast.

Too bad there isn't any alternative to windows right now... Longhorn could have been the final push that made people switch over.
Posted on 2005-01-03 09:08:07 by f0dder
.NET is the next great thing and many people are moving to it. I hear Java is fading fast but will never disappear.

Remember that .NET and Longhorn are built into the IE browser and IE is 95% of the browser market and Windows is X% of the desktop market so, there ya go.
Posted on 2005-01-03 09:30:33 by drhowarddrfine
> Yes, and i should switch to ms world completly

The MS share price tells us that most people don't consider this as a realistic option
Posted on 2005-01-03 09:33:45 by japheth

Too bad there isn't any alternative to windows right now... Longhorn could have been the final push that made people switch over.

There is an alternatives in the server world. Longhorn release will probably push even more companies to switch to unix based
systems. Too bad it doesn't applies for the desktop area.
Posted on 2005-01-03 10:09:33 by arafel
I was thinking about desktops indeed - I don't care much about servers, as it doesn't really take much to, well, serve. It's more acceptable to require "nerdy configuration" for a server, while people expect a Desktop OS to just bloody work.
Posted on 2005-01-03 10:42:12 by f0dder
The problem with that thought is Microsoft is blending the server and the desktop OS with their ability to transfer data and communicate.
Posted on 2005-01-03 11:47:57 by drhowarddrfine

So can .NET... http://www.mono-project.com

Well, i never really tried Mono, but as far as i heard , its speed & stability makes it a joke copared to the java vm which is far more mature.


Native code is still native code, and the biggest bottlenecks in applications are not very often use of API calls, so this shouldn't be that much of an issue. And I doubt that they're writing *all* of the OS as managed. Will be interesting to see how well the next version of their JITer functions, anyway.

Read MSDN. all the stuff is managed. Thats what winFx is about. Having *everything* managed.


The Java VM from SUN sucks bigtime. The MS Java VM was a lot faster. Thus it's reasonable to expect that the .NET VM is a faster too.
look at some of the benchmarks on the net(not the ones from microsoft, though) both are extremly close and the java garbage collector is uses many different algorithms for different machine configs than the .net one which uses only the generational collection algo.


Too bad there isn't any alternative to windows right now...


As if there ever was ;)
Posted on 2005-01-03 13:08:36 by clippy
Read MSDN. all the stuff is managed. Thats what winFx is about. Having *everything* managed.

So basically every application using api calls excessively will be three times slower!? well.., maybe it wont be that much noticeable, giving Microsoft probably will set minimum cpu requirements for Longhorn to something like 1.4ghz!
Posted on 2005-01-03 15:30:47 by arafel
the real question is
will M$ survive longhorn ?
I mean look at what a mess there windows O/Ss are
thay relase beata code and let thayer customers test it for them
then patch (update ) the hell out of it
pluss olny M$ will be writing software for it
and you will have to buy a new top of the line computer to run it
who will be able to afford it?

No I see longhoren as the best thing that could happen to linux
Posted on 2005-01-16 12:48:58 by rob.rice
I think f0dder has hit the nail on the head although it was easy to glance over it.

.Net/Mono assembly programs will be OS independent. Pretty impressive as the same Mono programs will run on Windows, Linux and Mac.

But, Microsoft may be killing themselves again similar to the DLL Hell created years ago.

Mono has come a long way in the last 6 months. It has just implemented a complete SDK and documentation similar to MSDN. Right now there is a huge move to get .Net VB and C# programmers to realize they can do all their Windows programming either on Linux or Windows. Long time Microsoft developers are jumping off the Microsoft bandwagon while they can.

http://www.fwdnug.org/Default.aspx?tabid=25
Posted on 2005-01-16 16:28:35 by Kdr Kane
I think f0dder has hit the nail on the head although it was easy to glance over it.

.Net/Mono assembly programs will be OS independent. Pretty impressive as the same Mono programs will run on Windows, Linux and Mac.

What you guys dont seem to understand and what my point is that , there will be *no* .net when lognhorn comes out. What i mean by that is that the entire framework , all the libraries will be replaced by the winFx system. And to copy all the functionality of winFx into Mono would mean writing a *new* windows :roll: . And the java libraries which are very similar to the .net libs will be obsolete, as will .net.
Posted on 2005-01-16 21:09:51 by clippy
Do you really believe Microsoft is making WinFX so that it won't run .Net applications? I don't think so, even if they can get it out on time.

As an example, Mono supports .Net assemblies and ASP.Net. I don't think that's going away with Longhorn.

In fact, Microsoft can't even keep WinFS as scheduled in Longhorn. I'm not confusing WinFX and WinFS. It's just that Microsoft makes a lot of promises to try to confuse customers.

'Longhorn' Delay Is Linux Gain
Posted on 2005-01-17 16:14:43 by Kdr Kane
Microsoft recently notified that later this year it will make new efforts to fight the piracy of their products. One of proposed solutions is to verify every installation prior to getting updates online.
Firstly I very doubt it will push users currently using pirated version to switch to legal one. Most people will continue to use it regardless the inability to update. And this will probably bring huge waves of worms and viruses.
Another opportunity window for competing os'es to step forward!
Posted on 2005-01-26 18:46:32 by arafel
I was just talking to someone else about that today. I've given up on the whole .NET thing because of cost. I was using someone elses computer at their work to learn the whole thing but, if you buy SQL for $5k, then server for $1.2K then VS for $2K (the whole package) that's $8K. If you're a decent C++/Javascript/HTML/CSS coder, you can do the same thing .NET does for free using Apache and MySQL and still run it all on Windows so you can create web services.

If you do it without Microsoft software then you don't have to worry about paying for upgrades or Microsoft changing the whole direction under your feet.

I read a blog today that claims you can tell .NET websites because they all look the same. It said Microsoft appears to them to be steering the course of website layout and design. The advantage is common usability. The disadvantage is individuality.

I think the biggest disadvantage is standards violation. There are standards and there are Microsoft standards and sometimes Microsoft gets in the way of both, tripping over their own feet.

Truth be told, I would buy all that software if a project came along that would pay for it but I'm not so sure it would make me happy. Right now, I'm going to do this for me and I think Apache, et al, is the best way to go.
Posted on 2005-01-26 22:53:13 by drhowarddrfine
drhoward,

of course, you don't need to buy vs.net to use .net, i use nant (free) + textpad (free) to compile and develop it.

also mysql isn't free for commercial purposes anymore, so you will be purchasing a db no matter which you choose.

and yes, an OS will cost you some money, but..

but imo, i truly hate the c# language, there are so many things wrong with it :(, but the .net framework format for webpages is quite nice.

wrt look, i don't use any of the inbuilt .net "controls" or anything like that, so of course you are free to make it look as you wish (as i do..)..
Posted on 2005-01-29 18:32:34 by abc123