hi all,

my question is why the electron doesn't fall in the nucleus i'm serious
Posted on 2005-12-10 12:49:23 by hotspot
The image of an electron orbiting a nucleus is just a convience for trying to visualise things, it doesn't necessarly reflect how an atom is made up in reality.

So to answer your question, I don't know.
Posted on 2005-12-10 13:08:04 by Eóin
Exactly as Eóin said - an atom doesn't look like you're used to think it looks like.

Here's an image of the hydrogen: http://www.physicsdaily.com/physics/upload/thumb/8/86/275px-HAtomOrbitals.png

1, 2 and 3 are the possible 'modes' in which an electron can 'operate' (I don't know how to explain it better. maybe someone other can). S, P, D are 'submodes' of those 'modes'. the more complicated an atom is, the more modes/submodes it has. mode 1 has onlly 1 submode, mode 2 has 2 submodes, mode 3 has 3 submodes, and so on. an atom can have many, many modes and many, many, many submodes of those modes.
.. .

Notice that you CAN'T say where the electrons are. The intensity of those "clouds" show the POSSIBILITY of finding an electron there. "In Quantum mechanics nothing is certain" - remember this when you'll be learning quantum mechanics.

The distance between an electron and a nucleus is approx. 100'000 times greater than the nucleus' radius. Physicists use to say taht "the matter is empty". You can see the matter because there are incredible amounts of it before your eyes, but the fact is that there is more "space" than the matter before your eyes.

So if the electrons could fell into the nucleus, the matter would shrink by approx. 100'000 times.

Now, to the point: The physics of the microworld is very different from the physics of the macroworld. Physics of the microworld is called 'quantum mechanics'. Particles sometimes act as if they were -indeed- particles, but sometimes they act as if they were 'waves'. According to the Heisenberg's theorem: the more precisely you know the position of a particle, the less precisely you know its velocity vector. So now: every thing on this world is very lazy , so it tries to keep being lazy at all costs. the Particles also try to use as little energy as it's possible. as the research showed it, the electrons have the least energy when they're most far away from they nucleus, not when they're most close to it. Only the heisenberg's theorem explains this strange behavior. There are also more strange things in quantum physics, like 'the tunneling' - the ability of an electron to move "thgough" a matter. That's how transistors work, and that's why you can use the computer right now. on the above image you can see black spaces between the clouds. if the hydrogen has only 1 electron, then how can it move between those clouds, so that the chance of finding it between them is 0? The answer is: tunneling. an electron can "tunnel" through the matter, and even through the timespace (tunneling through the timespace is called "fluctuation" if I recall correctly).

Quantum physics is very complicated peace of knowledge - you're either "fully in" (like physics scientists) or "fully out" of it. You can't learn 'a bit' of it. And that's why the above mentioned Heisenberg's theorem might look like a magic if you're not familiar with quantum mechanics. :)

Good look on learning it, because the more you know about it, the more fascinating it it :P
Posted on 2005-12-10 13:16:46 by ti_mo_n
The quantum theory explain the photon behavior, sometimes it's look like wave, sometimes it's look like a mass, so the quantum theory mix the two kinds in one form.
Some scientist attempted to generalized the idea to reach all moving bodies, and this near to explain why the electron moving meandrous path around the nucleus so he want to say that because of the shape of electron movement electron can not reach the center. But if that is right how scientist could split and destroyed  nucleus by shooting it with a smallest bullet in the world (electron)?!

Posted on 2005-12-10 15:18:35 by hotspot
Electron is moving around the nucleus not because it cannot reach it (actually it can), but -as i've said earlier- because it uses the least amount of energy by staying at highest possible distance from the nucleus. Electrons can be directed for scientific puroposes (inside the so called 'accelerators'), or for purposes such us destroying the nucleus, and thus freeing the matter from the 'bounds' so that it becomes the energy again (according to the einstein's e=mc^2). matter is just a condensed energy. by using a higher energy it can be undondensed (freed). this freed energy is high enough to free another matter from bounds, and so on. i think everyone knows how the chain reaction works :) Large amount of heat is generated during this process (that's why it's being used to boil the water inside the nuclear power plants).
Posted on 2005-12-10 18:29:17 by ti_mo_n
Newton's First Law of Motion: Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

If that electron is in orbit, and nothing else is forcing it out of that orbit (like a space shuttle orbiting a planet)... then it is quite content in staying in orbit because it involves the least amount of energy.

Splitting atoms is no different than taking a sledge hammer to a crystal ball, you just have to use more force than what is keeping that atom together.

As for empty space, imagine the electron being everywhere at once, it moves so fast that there really is no empty space. If you still can't imagine how this type of system could create solid matter, imagine something similar to an ultra-microscopic bed of nails, anything of significant mass would be oblivious to the fact that there is space between the nails.
Posted on 2005-12-10 19:59:16 by SpooK
Normal situation of atom's structure is when electron moving around near or beside the nucleus in some orbits so the Newton motion theory controls of atom's structure, but what can you say in plasma situation there is no orbits no atom structure just a big mess of electrons and nucleuses also in this case the electron doesn't fall in the nucleus.
Let me simplify the matter, assume we get ability to capture a nucleus and an electron and put them in empty space with some distance between them, now we release them, what do you think will happen……., as you know because of the charge they will start attracted together so if the electron stay moving in direct line towards nucleus that mean finally it will fall in the nucleus, but this never happened because if this happened the universal must ended before millions years. Other wise the electron depart from the direct line therefore it can't reach the nucleus what I want to say if this analysis is right that mean there is something missed in the modern atom's structure
That is the central point in my question.
Posted on 2005-12-11 02:50:24 by hotspot
I wonder if it could have something to do with the presence of neutrons that may have been overlooked (over-simplified by the "no charge - no effect" factor).
Posted on 2005-12-11 03:01:12 by SpooK
the electron will get near the nulceus and start orbiting arund it. it is because  -as i've said- the least energy consuming state it can have. newton's laws don't apply very well in microworld, because electrons seem to move outwards the nucleus if they are too close, but never leave their incfluecne area. as for the plasma: there is so high energy used to create the plasma, that the electrons feel that they have abundance of it so they just move randomly (the force that normallny tells them to orbit around is now very small compared to other energies). when teh evergy dissipates, the electrons return (mostly) to their normal states. electrons can also move from 1 nucleus to another (to create electric current). it is because if the nucleus are "configured" properly, their "least energy state" spaces overlap, so the electron is free to move between one and another. isolators have so bad configuration, that the electron requires much higher energy to move to another nulceus (but it can be done using proportionally higher energy -- try applying 1'000'000 volts to an isolator -- it will conduct small current).

I use to imagine atoms as waves. imagine what happens when you throw a stone into the water. it starts waving from the impact point. but le't freeze the time for a second. what do you see? you see spherical waves. those waves have their peaks (both high peaks and low peaks, or rows). now imagine that there is a row inside the center. in this central row resides the nucleus. electrons reside at neighbor rows, etc.  but also include one thing in this image: every next row (starting from the center) is "lower" compared to the previous one. this way you can easily drop to the next row, but it's more difficult to get back near the center.

now what happens when you throw 2 stones near each other? some 'rows' will oerlap allowing to move from 1 nucleus to another with only small energy required to do so.

I hope you get the point :)

The attachment shows 2 atoms that share 1 electron which can move from 1 nucleus to another (other electrons are omitted for simplicity). green points are the nuclei and the blue point is the electron. red line shows that there is some energy required go get near the nucleus, but when you're near to it - you can lose some energy by getting away of it (and that's what every electron tries to do). Please don't comment the quality of this image
Posted on 2005-12-11 13:06:58 by ti_mo_n
Let me see what I get from your vision is when the electron reach influence area nucleus attempt to change electron direction by its waves and when the direction been changed the electron attempt to orbiting around nucleus so the distance between the electron and nucleus depending on the energy holed by electron. But when we released the electron it is start to moving toward the nucleus because of the electric charge so when it reach influence area why the direction get change and why to the left or right up or down maybe what happens electron lose some speed to be slowest or get some to be fastest also if the electron settle in some orbits why not the influence area try to push it out.
I am completely agree with you, there is something changes the electron's direction but this thing must be related or deal with directions like magnetic field you know electron when moving in magnetic field direction get change depending on left hand rule I think this will be more acceptable.

About the picture quality I thought it one work piece of modern art  ;)

Posted on 2005-12-11 15:24:08 by hotspot
magnetic field is a property of timespace. it can be spread through the timespace at lightspeed through the so called electro-magnetic-field phenomenon. if a magnetic field exists at a place, then it exists even if there is nothing to be influenced by it. it is a property of timespace itself - not a reaction, as people though some time ago. now to the point: when a nuleus lacks some electrons, then it's charged positively and is said to contain "electric field" (not the magnetic field). you have to MOVE the electric field thgough the timespace, to create magnetic field (and this movement will probably create electric field, and so on - that's how we get the 'electromagnetic' field). this magnetic field is created by disturbing the timespace. Rember that the 'matter' is only a condensed energy. Our world consists of energy and the void (a.k.a 'vacuum'). The void is said to have its own energy, but for that you must ask your physics proffesor. Now: when you condense the energy, you get the matter. condensed matter is just a critically condensed energy. that's why you can't get electrons close to the nucleus (well you can, but not easily) because it would require large amounts of energy to opress the energy you try to condense. you can think of it like of the pressure: higher pressure pushes lower pressure. that's why you need ultra high energy to condense matter (matter is an already highly condensed energy: e=mc^2).

now the previous puicture: this is a 2D picture showing that the electron requires some energy to get "up" - near the nucleus. it is because the 1D space (the line) is disturbed. in reality, where we have 4D timespace, you need to disturb 3 of 4 axii to get this effect (it doesn't matter if you take X;Y;time,  or  X;Z;time   X;Y;Z  or whatever). electron can;t get near because it's in a 'row' but this row is 3D - not 1D as on the picture. you can think of 3D row as of simple row (by taking X;Y;Z) or something more general: by taking X;Y;time you must visualize how the electron is being slowed when it tries to reach the nucleus. quantum mechanics is crazy :P

About the picture quality I thought it one work piece of modern art  ;)

Posted on 2005-12-11 16:12:03 by ti_mo_n

my question is why the electron doesn't fall in the nucleus i'm serious

    First of all, commenting on your subject heading, the electron DOES love the nucleus.  It follows the nucleus around wherever the atom goes.  To further elaborate, the atom and its subatomic particles are part of a stable, interlocked, physical dynamic system that is governed by a complicated set of laws pertaining to energy states.  Niels Bohr enumerated some of these laws for the 'simple' hydrogen atom.  No one else have been able to duplicate this achievement for the higher atoms.  The electrons are locked into probability orbits until they gain or lose energy.  This energy gain/loss is not fractional, but seems to occur in discrete defined amounts called quanta.  This is a complicated subject not coverable in a short answer.  You are best advised to consult books and articles on particle physics.  Some are quite basic and readable, but be warned that the subject matter is vast and it can be complicated.  Ratch
Posted on 2005-12-11 20:27:40 by Ratch
Yes but electron itself is energy it's not deferent thing so why energy doesn't mix with energy it is as nucleus has electro-magnetic energy so from the electric side the two get deferent charge and from the magnetic side as the scientists said electron moving round itself with charge presence it will get magnetic field this field same as that one in nucleus (energy same energy, electric field same but deferent charge, magnetic field same) then if we bring them together in same timespace so all elements will not prevent electron to get the nucleus, on the contrary they all facilitate the way for the electron to get his dream. But this thing doesn't exist in real existence.

I want to say, we have to separate or recognize between the mind existence and the real existence, yes we can use the mind existence to explain the real existence but we have to get all introductions from the real not from the mind existence, we just have phenomenon and results of experiments, theories are explanations of phenomenon to discover the causes and in the whole physics history all scientists try to explain phenomenon and when they get some problem to explain some matter they tried to get another explanation, when Newton said that the light is matter like some small particles this idea was standard for long time but when scientists discovered that light move slowest in materials they disqualify this idea therefore they start to get new explanation.
Posted on 2005-12-12 05:38:09 by hotspot

Yes but electron itself is energy it's not deferent thing so why energy doesn't mix with energy .....

    The electron is a particle mass.  This mass has a EQUIVALENCY to energy like all mass does.  The electron also has kinetic energy, rotational energy, and energy involved with its negative charge.  A moving vehicle also has mass, kinetic energy, and rotational energy from the tires.  Why doesn't its energy 'mix' with some other energy?

    I don't know if you are asking a question or making a point.  Do you mean imagination when you say 'mind existence', and reality when you say 'real existence'?  If you are making a point, please state it more succinctly.  If you are have a question that has not been answered, ask it again without all the musings.  Ratch
Posted on 2005-12-12 11:17:53 by Ratch
Well, ratch I'm sorry to confusing you by my words actually I meant the mental existence this term has been used by some philosophers refers to all mind activates, I think this more comprehensive from imagination, anyway my point and my question is 'what is the actual cause that prevent electron to follow influence of the electrical charge.' So ti_mo_n trying to give me an explanation through the quantum theory and he was really wonderful but unfortunately I didn't get the point yet  :|
So to visualizing my problem I will give you an example, assume we have a vessel filled with some water and we starting to drip a drop in this vessel so when the drop reach the surface of the water it will mix and disappear in to the water that because the drop has the same properties of the water but if this didn't happened that mean there is some thing wrong like the properties are not same or there is deterrent between them and I think in the quantum theory this deterrent doesn't clear enough
Because and as I said the energy of the electron (electric-magnetic energy) same as what nucleus has, so the properties are same (energy same energy, electric field same but deferent charge, magnetic field same) that things make the way easiest to electron to get the nucleus not prevent it.     
Posted on 2005-12-12 14:04:54 by hotspot
every condensed energy creates a timespace distortion around it. it seems that the nuclei's distortions keep the electrons away, but at the same time their positive charge attracts the electrons. electrons dont orbit around the nucleus - they're "somewhere" near it. you can calculate the probability of finding an electron at a specified place. electrons are so small that we can't see them - we can only observe them (these 2 things are not the same). freely floating electron gets attracted to a nucleus by its charge. it moves, so the magnetic field is created also. there are also timespace distortions around each particle. the distortions prevent the electron from reaching the centre (it gets harder and harder to get close). at some point it is nearly impossible to get any closer, so the electron stays possibly close (because of the attraction due to charge) but at the same time it doesn't have enough energy to get any closer. particle physics, quantum mechanics, and such are VERY different from classical Newton's physics. Using Newtown's physics it was impossible to say why the light changes its speed relative to the observer (Einstein and Infeld wrote a great book which introduces the reader to modern physics. there is no single equation there. einstein and infeld just talk about topics, so they get from "newton's force", through electricity, to "quantum physics". great book. unfortunately i don't remember the name, but there aren't many books written by both Einstein and Infeld :) ).
Posted on 2005-12-12 15:54:39 by ti_mo_n

...anyway my point and my question is 'what is the actual cause that prevent electron to follow influence of the electrical charge.'

     Electrons are always influenced by the electric field associated with an electric charge.  That always happens.  Nothing prevents it.  The electron and the nucleus are in balance with each other.

So to visualizing my problem I will give you an example, assume we have a vessel filled with some water and we starting to drip a drop in this vessel so when the drop reach the surface of the water it will mix and disappear in to the water that because the drop has the same properties of the water

     The drop disappears because it is liquid.  It has nothing to do with the 'disappearance' of a orbital atomic electron.  That never happens.

     Let's see now.  Are you asking why an electron does not fall into the positively charged nucleus because the electron's negative charge would attract it?  It would be tempting to say it is because of its centrifugal force, but that is not the case.  As I said before, the nucleus and electron are locked into a stable energy state.  If the correct quanta of energy is applied to an electron, it tends to go outward and perhaps even away from the atom causing a ion to form.  The nucleus guards its territory jealously, and keeps its orbital electrons out.  A high energy particle can sometime penetrate the nucleus causing it to split.  If you want to understand why it happens this way, you MUST study particle physics.  We cannot give you a neat answer as to why this happens without you wanting to ask many more questions.  The why of this topic is just too big for this forum.  We can only give you our limited knowledge about what does and does not happen.  Ratch


Posted on 2005-12-12 17:18:29 by Ratch
The why of this topic is just too big for this form.  We can only give you our limited knowledge about what does and does not happen.

True :)

This is the book i mentioned: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671201565/103-4130666-7331830?v=glance&n=283155

It is 'a must' if you want to get into particle physics.
Posted on 2005-12-12 17:59:45 by ti_mo_n
thanks ti_mo_n really helpfull
Posted on 2006-05-26 05:25:37 by hotspot