well for everyone that doesn't support my decision and to give an explanation: If people don't wish to pay for a musician's creativity, then why on earth should they pay for a programmer's creativity? They both are tiring professions that usually require a lot of personal intellectual input to shape a 'creation' to its final image. If you wish to pirate, go ahead, but this forum will not be used to help you with it. I'm not judging anyone here, but I am laying down the law. There is no such thing as democracy on the web: I pay for this space, ergo I choose what to do with it. I choose not to allow piracy/cracking/whatever of any kind because it's illegal and it yet again casts that underground/hackers gloom over assembly, where it really should be looked at as a great beneficial power. I want people to visit the forums to learn and to share their knowledge, while hopefully building a greater acceptance and understanding of assembler in 'the real world', not to be 'l33t'. In my opinion, there is a greater danger in the free software movement then many people realise: while most software developers are overjoyed by its open character, most regular users don't care. They see free and think that it's the same as in 'free beer'. Those same users that think that 'everything should be free' will not pay the artists nor you, whenever either of you release something new. So while they find it to be oh so normal to be paid for their work, they do not think the same of yours. IMO this is a dangerous evolution against which programmers should be wary. So unless you think of your time as worthless, react against pirating software/music/whatever and point people to the fact that everyone needs to make a living. I'm not the virgin Mary and I have done and probably will do some illegal things in my further life, but I certainly am aware that they are against the law. Some of todays users aren't aware anymore and it holds great risks for our future. The problem as I see it, is that the word free was used where open was meant, creating the wrong state of mind with the largest part of the population. You can call me a hypocrit, you're probably even partially right. I try to buy as much of my software/music as I can but I do like the fact that I can 'pre-test' all of them. However I am aware of the fact that some things aren't kosher and that some day I might be held accountable for it by someone: you will not here me whining about 'how Metallica sucks' then. I'm not warning against the act of piracy itself, but on the general acceptance by the broad public that I see happening around me, which is a major difference. Well now you have a little piece of my mind and this thread will stay open to receive yours (provided they don't result to name calling). -H- out.
Posted on 2001-05-04 17:08:00 by Hiroshimator
Hiroshimator is a great guy.
Posted on 2001-05-04 17:17:00 by wolfao
Wew, did you get up with the wrong foot today, Hiro? I agree tho, but I kinda miss the context, were there a lot of "not so correct" posts lately? and... did someone say "free beer"?
Posted on 2001-05-04 17:32:00 by JimmyClif
This is in response to the napster topic. I closed it and have gotten a lot of e-mails about it, disagreeing with my decision. While I (and some others like Iczelion, Ernie, Hutch--,... all mods/admins) make the decisions, I find it important to be open to you why the decisions are made. You might not agree with them, but at least you know why they are made and in what spirit. Maybe I'm a stupid fool but I care a lot for the growth of this community and for its open spirit. And if any of you guys ever are in Belgium, send me a message and I'll buy you a beer ;) This message was edited by Hiroshimator, on 5/4/2001 7:43:57 PM
Posted on 2001-05-04 17:53:00 by Hiroshimator
I posted a reply in the napster topic but I agree with you that it should be closed, as well that this forum should stay open to everyone, and I won't complain about it either. Thomas
Posted on 2001-05-04 18:45:00 by Thomas
Hi Hiroshimator, What is the difference between these topics? Hacking a closed source DLL (which was Locked) Undocumented API (which wasn't):rolleyes:
Posted on 2001-05-04 20:06:00 by SFinegan
I think you're pretty fine, hiro. And at least you're realistic, not like some of those holy bastards we see other places. As long as you don't shut down topics just because they *might* be used for cracking/whatever, I feel fine. Ie, it was fine to shut down the topic about napster...but what about Read/WriteProcessMemory? Those APIs can be misused. And what about low-level stuff? PE modification? Kernel32-base scanning, or a home-coded GetProcAddress? All of these can, theoretically, be misued for viral or cracking purposes, but can also be useful for other things (if for nothing else, learning what's going on). As for myself, I find that cracking is a great way to test my programming and analytical skills. I respect that cracking is out of bounds this messageboard - and hey, there's other msgboards for this purpose, so it doesn't really hurt. And like the majority of people, I use warez. Don't feel good about it when it's a good app, but I'm a poor student. I know that's not really an excuse, but that's the way it is. Try to buy stuff when I can afford it. A bit hard when you don't have a VISA card, though. And as for music, I generally buy the stuff, since there's so little music I like, and that music is special enough you can't find it on the music sharing services. But sure, when I can, I do get MP3 versions first so I can figure out if I like the music. Just isn't enough to listen to it in a record shop, you have to listen to it at home -- while coding, sleeping, bathing, etc. Well, let's make this thread into an ethics discussion, shan't we? :)
Posted on 2001-05-04 20:19:00 by f0dder
I agree I have closed and will close some threads that i feel are hacker/cracker oriented.... i let live (barely) some that are at the edge ;) like Undocumented...because its information there that can be usefull not only for cracking....but my hand was shivering over that button... ;D
Posted on 2001-05-04 22:47:00 by BogdanOntanu
There are a number of issues involved, this forum has turned into something that is unique in that it involves programmers from many different backgrounds contributing to many others in a useful and friendly way. Protecting this forum is an important thing and I completely agree with Hiroshimator that it must not be used in a manner that will endanger its survival. I think that I can fairly say as one of the older programmers here that assembler pre-dates the association with hacking and virus programming by a long way. I tend to see cracking in another light, most of what I have seen has been programmers using the techniques of reverse engineering software to learn about the structure of low level binary code. Certainly there has been an illegal element but the vast majority of programmers who practiced in that area worked on a set of ethics which meant leaving shareware developers alone and sharing there knowledge of security systems so that other programmers could better protect their products. My own generation routinely worked directly in binary so I can see the use of programmers developing these skills. I draw the line at virus/trojan programming as I will never support and form of action that ruins the life and time of innocent people. I have often heard people from this background claim that they don't release their viruses but it still entails the mentality that there is some situation where releasing this type of code is justifiable. As long as this forum stays a constructive and friendly place, it will continue to be very successful which means a lot of programmers will learn a lot more about assembler programming than if it did not exist. Being able to program nearly anything you like in assembler is a method of empowering programmers to be able to do things that many of the modern alternative languages will not allow them to do. This empowering is far more important than the revenge and dangerous activities of the idiot fringe that seek support from other programmers in what they do. I actively support the supression of ilegal activities in this forum as it ensures that the vast majority of programmers here are not under any cloud of suspicion from the activities of a few. Just one note when it comes to questions about things like a DLL where the technical data is not available, it is actually a legitimate pursuit in programming to trace its usage so it can be used in a normal manner, the topic of "HACKING" the DLL was simply a mistake as it did not need to be "HACKED", the simple solution was to decompile it and trace through the code to find out what was being passed to it. For any who need help in working out how to use a DLL that is not documented properly or if the authors are no longer in business which is often the case, just be a little careful about what you are requesting, if it looks illegal, it will be removed as the forum is simply more important than the occasional request of this type. Regards, hutch@pbq.com.au
Posted on 2001-05-04 22:51:00 by hutch--
Trying for a lil humor her:
disease_2000: why don't they spent their time a- nd create software like that to HELP kids?
Because children are our future... and that scares me, so i try to slow them down as much as i can! lol! ok nuf of the crap. Crackers, damnit that's a harsh term, I prefer Reverse Engineer, because there's 2 kinds, the guys like me that want to learn and teach and those who just release cracks for the hell of it. Is that right? No. But are you telling me that i can not expand my knowleged on this board, ok yeah there's other boards to do that on, but the thing is, people like us, who strive and learn. who says we always do it illegaly? no one. Yes i have writen a couple Reverse Engineer tutorials, but its how a person uses it, not ther person who writes it. Im not claiming to be l33t, because im not, and i dont beleive in that, i really dont. we reverse to learn, to push security further, faster, and tell software developers,
 you suck, get you butt in gear and create somthing for me! 
and yeah asm has alot to do with it. we are cleaver, like everyone else at crackmes.cjb.net. are you denying the cracking of crackme's? they are created by us to be cracked... even if the person has no skillz and codes in vb, why are we not allowed to talk about that stuff. I dont pirate, sure i share knowledge about reversing but who cares? not going to be my head if someone misuses it. what about the coding of protection schemes? are we allowed to fratinize about them? if not why. asm is reversing, and reversing is asm, i came into this world a reverser, and ill leave and asm programer, but thats life. don't create a drout for the knowledge out there, please. -brad This message was edited by Rage9, on 5/5/2001 12:56:17 AM
Posted on 2001-05-05 00:55:00 by Rage9
I believe that cracking someone else program in order not to pay for it is not only illegal but also a bad thing to do. You are not only stealing the money value of it but also the time it took to create it. On the other hand I do belive in opensource. Knowledge is something that should be shared and not keept. That way humanity could advance instead of reinventing the wheel over and over. However I understand that this concept is utopian. In reality, people then to have a bad side. Its easy to steal from someone that you dont know, one do not think about the long hours the developer should have spend making the software, or if he/she have to pay rent and eat. Maybe there are some people that dont care, but I know that if people take for one moment the side of the developer and think it, most people would not commit piracy. Piracy is an act of not seen, not thinking, so not feeling. Just my 2 cents.:D
Posted on 2001-05-05 03:35:00 by dxantos
Well i don't like it how some people seem to think illegal=bad. I mean J-Walking is illegal and almost everyone j-walks. Are all this people supposed to be bad or is almost everyone bad? There's allot of reasons to make something illegal. I mean it lowers the amount of people doing it and they can't do it as openly. And there's allot of bad things you can do that are not illegal. And i don't feel like giving examples but there's allot. Now when you copy something no one looses from it. I hate people who say its stealing. Stealing is when someone has something and you take it and then you have it and they don't have it. When you go to a restaurant and have a good type of chicken that that restaurant invented and then when you go home you cook your self that same kind of type of chicken that they had in the restaurant are you stealing from them?? And what exactly do you think people shouldn't do? I mean there's people who don't buy games but they have some rich friend who buys games and they borrow games from him. People can always go near places with music and listen for free. And they also can burrow from friends. I think music is very different from software. I mean the people who sing the music enjoy singing and being famous they would still make allot allot of money like they are even if people copy there music. they also make money from other things then there records. There's allot of people who sing that don't have records and they still sing and they would love to be famous Is there anything wrong with someone using a VCR to tape tv shows or movies on tv? is it wrong if he plays the tape while he has a friend at his house? or if he lends his friend the tape? while this could prevent them from going to blockbuster and renting it. And if someone doesn't copy something it doesn't mean he will buy it. There's allot of games he could always play a different game there's allot of shareware freeware games there's even on-line java games. Or he could simple not play computer games. When you use some nice freeware or GNU program do you bother to send the programer a donation? I mean after all that's probably the best way to help the programer send directly money. In a certain way lots of programers are just employees whether there software is successful or not they get paid the same. For there employers they are cheap money and the owner gets all the money in profits. I seem to wonder what would happen if people didn't copy software. There would probably be more and better freeware games a since more people would play them since they are free while when people copy games all of them are kinda free. And this freeware games would compete with the commercial games. I bet there would be allot more people running linux. Or maybe they would already complete a open source win clone. Thought there is already a win emulator for linux. It seems that ms if kinda benefiting from this copying. I mean there would be less running win and more people running line since some people simply don't think they should buy a os. And after all ms wants monopoly and for everyone to use there os. Remember IE is free. Maybe this would encourage more people to make a win clone. There's alot of young people copying software then latter when they go work in a company or open a business they use that program. So the company that made the program benefits from this. If they would say they benefit from this people who buy there stuff might copy there stuff instead so the company stays quiet. Now why did i mention games and not other programs? Well allot of the other software companies use. And of course a company should buy the software. Companies have a budget and they make\save money with the software. Companies spend allot of money on other stuff so why wouldn't they spend money on software. People don't have this kind of budget. The game they buy doesn't make\save them money. It doesn't give them any profits. And there's allot of o
Posted on 2001-05-05 05:08:00 by Rancor
Uh... I see that this thread gets us split into two groups... This gets a kind of "Morlocks and the Eloys" dilemma.. *hehehe*
Posted on 2001-05-05 07:11:00 by JimmyClif
True. This is getting nowhere. But anyway. There is a difference between triying out a program and pirating one. In the first one you try the software and if you dont like it you erase it, if you like it you buy it. In the second one you dont have the intention of buying it, you know that the person deserves remuneration for it, but dont care. That by definition is stealing (taking someone else property). How on earth will people program fulltime without getting paid for it? Or should programming be restricted to a hobby in the spare time? There are that says there is notting wrong with piracy and nobody loses. I say, then go ahead and try to make a living making software FULLTIME, not as a hobby or as a student. After that then tell us that is not wrong pirating your software.
Posted on 2001-05-05 13:56:00 by dxantos
Hi Hiroshimator, What is the difference between these topics? Hacking a closed source DLL (which was Locked) Undocumented API (which wasn't)
I don't see all threads (only human with little time) and while we usually think alike the 'staf' of this board will have a slight difference in opinion sometimes. While both Iczelion and I can re-open threads closed by ourselves and others, we will always back-up the judgement of the moderator in question. We're in here as a team and we stand together as a team. I personally am very happy that they all wish to dedicate some time to do this.
When you go to a restaurant and have a good type of chicken that that restaurant invented and then when you go home you cook your self that same kind of type of chicken that they had in the restaurant are you stealing from them??
Well as soon as I create a program, someone sees it and codes a similar (will probably never be 100% equal) program based on just using it, then they can have it for all I care, since basically they created it themselves. How many people will be able to do that? :rolleyes: I guess Quake should have gotten better by now if all those gamers could.
I mean there's people who don't buy games but they have some rich friend who buys games and they borrow games from him.
So? This still isn't legal and the rich friend can get into problems because of it.
People can always go near places with music and listen for free. And they also can burrow from friends.
For the friends part, see above. And for the places with music: they already paid the royalties to be able to use the music in a public accessible place.
I think music is very different from software. I mean the people who sing the music enjoy singing and being famous they would still make allot allot of money like they are even if people copy there music. they also make money from other things then there records. There's allot of people who sing that don't have records and they still sing and they would love to be famous
Wether musicians/programmers/anyone still has different ways to make money is besides the point. You still are denying them some money to which they are entitled to.
Is there anything wrong with someone using a VCR to tape tv shows or movies on tv? is it wrong if he plays the tape while he has a friend at his house? or if he lends his friend the tape? while this could prevent them from going to blockbuster and renting it.
In fact it is, widely accepted and 'tolerated' doesn't make it less illegal.
And if someone doesn't copy something it doesn't mean he will buy it. There's allot of games he could always play a different game there's allot of shareware freeware games there's even on-line java games. Or he could simple not play computer games.
What's your point? If people don't use something, then they certainly don't have to buy it.
When you use some nice freeware or GNU program do you bother to send the programer a donation? I mean after all that's probably the best way to help the programer send directly money.
If they wanted money for it, then they shouldn't have released it as freeware. The discussion is the fact that people don't send money to non-freeware programmers.
In a certain way lots of programers are just employees whether there software is successful or not they get paid the same. For there employers they are cheap money and the owner gets all the money in profits.
Some are, some aren't. That doesn't make any difference.
I seem to wonder what would happen if people didn't copy software. There would probably be more and better freeware games a since more people would play them since they are free while when people copy games all of them are kinda free. And this freeware games would compete with the commercial games. I bet there would be allot more people running linux. Or maybe they would
Posted on 2001-05-05 16:42:00 by Hiroshimator
-------------------- Quote ------------------------------ "Well as soon as I create a program, someone sees it and codes a similar (will probably never be 100% equal) program based on just using it, then they can have it for all I care, since basically they created it themselves." --------------------------------------------------------- So you have no problem with them violating patents and copyrights? its still illegal. -------------------- Quote ------------------------------ So? This still isn't legal and the rich friend can get into problems because of it. --------------------------------------------------------- why is that illegal? they could always give you the game for free or sell you it for a $1. And people also trade games. Is all of those illegal? -------------------- Quote ------------------------------ You still are denying them some money to which they are entitled to. --------------------------------------------------------- "entitled to"? What makes them entitled to this extra money? There fans are the ones that made them famous and made them incredibly rich. If there fans want to copy some cds, its the fans who made them rich and famous in the first place. -------------------- Quote ------------------------------ In fact it is, widely accepted and 'tolerated' doesn't make it less illegal. --------------------------------------------------------- Theres alot of companies making new kind of things to record things on tv Are you saying that they are encouraging illegal things? I think there's software companys making tv recording things as well. -------------------- Quote ------------------------------ What's your point? If people don't use something, then they certainly don't have to buy it. --------------------------------------------------------- My point is lots of people who copy allot of games would never have bought this games even if they didn't copy them. I am saying that the fact the companies say that people copy there games doesen't mean that those people would buy them if they didn't copy them. There's other things to do then play computer games. -------------------- Quote ------------------------------ If they wanted money for it, then they shouldn't have released it as freeware. The discussion is the fact that people don't send money to non-freeware programmers. --------------------------------------------------------- I really don't understand this. It seems your saying it's just a legal matter. Freeware programers are also people they also need food and shelter. What makes them not need the money? Remember that freeware programers don't get paid a salery. Freeware programers could make there programes freeware so people who can't afford it will be able to use it as well. And people who think they deserve money and have the money could send them a donation. Just because someone doesen't want to make a shareware program with limitations doesen't mean he doesen't need or deserve money. -------------------- Quote ------------------------------ Don't get me wrong I use freebsd myself but *nix still has a long way to go before I can let my sister or (gaming) nephew use it. --------------------------------------------------------- What does this mean? Allot of people don't know how to install windows but they still use it. I assume it would be possible still to install linux and put a web browser. And a web browser is something people use allot. Someone probably would be able to use a web browser running under linux just as well as a brower running under a difrent os. I am saying if more people used linux insted of win becuase they don't want to buy win then there would be more developers for linux and more users for linux and then linux would have a bigger community. With a bigger community and more developers it would be more worth while to make more stuff for linux including user friendly stuff. Making it more advance then it is allredy. When it has a big comunity and its very popular
Posted on 2001-05-05 22:49:00 by Rancor
Burrrrp ! All this dialogue gives me indigestion. Bottom line is that specifically illegal content will be locked and or deleted as it protects the forum from association with these types of activities. People will do what they want to do, with or without the approval of this forum or its members but in this forum, the original intent of its founders was to make a safe place for assembler programmers to post and share ideas, not provide an extra vehicle for activities that are illegal. I fully support Hiroshimator in his approach to specifically illegal activities in this forum, basically go do them somewhere else as this is NOT the place for it. Lets pull the plug on this nonsense, it will not change the policy and it profits no-one. Regards, hutch@pbq.com.au
Posted on 2001-05-06 00:20:00 by hutch--
Yo ppl! =) Don't know if this is already answered.. But I don't have the time to read all of the thread right now =( What'd your stand be on lets say, adding functionality to notepad, since Microsoft left som stuff out? Would it be allowed on this forum? It isn't legal since those licence agreements say it isn't =) Allthought adding functionality to programs is a great source for learning and it's great fun too =) I may in some cases be needed to get a program to work properly, or just to add your own personal touch and your own functions.. =) //Phrekie
Posted on 2001-05-07 17:00:00 by Phrekie
Once, someone gave me a Radio. I was interested to see what was inside this radio, how did it worked and if I could modify something. So I opened it and saw electronic circuits, wires, etc. I began to exchange some pieces, and later it didn't worked anymore. Do you guys think that I was giving importance of how many hours the creator of this Radio spend designing the circuits? Do you think that I was giving importance of what the designer could think about me if he could see me destroying his Radio? No. I was giving a fuck of who this designer was or what he could think about me. I've done this with a Radio, and I will do the same with software. If I want to see what is hidden in Bill Gate's secret code, I will hack it. I fear closed software because nobody knows what is hidden inside. Maybe something evil like the easter egg "Hall of Tortured Souls". Who knows? Easter eggs are just inoffensive demonstrations proving that any kind of code can be hidden in a program. I'm not against private software, but I'm against CLOSED software. Quake 2's source was released, but this does not mean that the game is free. You must still pay to have the working game, and not just the executable. Why to hide the source? Is there something that I don't want to be there? "I don't buy a box before I know what is hidden inside."
Posted on 2001-05-07 21:57:00 by eeprom
First, Im not a lawyer so I cant talk about whats legal or not. So I can only express a point of view. I see nothing wrong with adding new functionality to existing application or even dissasembling them. Reverse enginering is a valid and valuable learning tool. If you bought the application (or its free) I see nothing wrong if you crack it, AS LONG AS THE CRACK IS NOT DISTRIBUTED. I know one good reason to crack an application, dongles. Tought to be an antipiracy scheme this things actually make the pirated version of software easier and more stable than the bought version. So sometimes there is a good reason to do this. Lets see this as a car. If bought a car or someone gives you one. Then you can do whatever you want with that car, upgraded, make it faster or slower, give it to a friend, lend it, crash it, whatever. However there are some differences between software and cars. Cars cannot be EASILY copied. Even if you tried, chances are that the car you make is different in some aspect from the original. Software on the other hand can be copied. Copy by itself its not stealing. There mane legal reason for doing this: backup, having more than one machine, etcetera. What makes it wrong when more than one people has paid access to the same software at the same time with only one payment. I havent seen a car that can be at two places at the same time, have you?
Posted on 2001-05-08 17:47:00 by dxantos