Are there many of you who would be interested in seeing this have it's own sub-forum? That way it will probably be easier to pursue all intellectual interest without compromising the board :) That way we can stop crack related request, while still giving everybody the opportunity to enjoy their field of interest in assembler under windows. My thoughts about it are like this: people see a subforum about disassembling, debuggers, reversing (you need to debug your programs don't you?).. but can also be warned that cracking is not allowed here. There will be less confusion because of the clear statement, the info will be in a more concise place allowing for more direct searches AND no hassles from me ;) How's that for a heuristic approach :D This message was edited by Hiroshimator, on 6/21/2001 7:58:22 AM
Posted on 2001-06-21 07:57:00 by Hiroshimator
you can cast a no vote for me... If you don't have the source then you're hacking..... (flames welcome :-)) umbongo
Posted on 2001-06-21 08:04:00 by umbongo
keep in mind that it also deals with the creation of debuggers, disassemblers and the likes. well...especially that.
Posted on 2001-06-21 08:12:00 by Hiroshimator
I am in two minds about the subject, I have used debuggers and they do have their place, much the same with disassemblers, I regularly use them on my own code to see what it ended up like after I wrote it. The problems I see are things like an unending number of SoftIce questions, crack requests, veiled crack requests and what would be a substitute for product support for people who don't own the software they want support for. Same for IDA, WDASM etc ... I personally don't have much interest in the area so I don't want to inflict my views on anyone else but I do see that a forum topic of this type would be more problems than its worth. Regards,
Posted on 2001-06-21 08:20:00 by hutch--
"Hacker: A person who writes programs in assembly language or in system-level languages, such as C. Although it may refer to any programmer, it implies very tedious "hacking away" at the bits and bytes. Since it takes an experienced hacker to gain unauthorized entrance into a secure computer to extract information and/or perform some prank or mischief at the site, the term has become synonymous with "cracker," a person that performs an illegal act. This use of the term is not appreciated by the overwhelming majority of hackers who are honest professionals." Do not confuse hacking with cracking!!!! And debugging code, or disassembling or own code or even other people's code to increase or knowledge as a programmer IS NOT and CAN'T EVER BE considered as "foul play" or illegal! If you are smart enough to realize how the world around you turns, then by all means dig in and allow yourself to grow even more. As for the new section... go for it if you think enough people will use it. LAST NOTE: And yes, ofcourse I am also against "screwing" decent folks by releasing cracks to their programs and the likes!
Posted on 2001-06-22 13:41:00 by Tiago Sanches
I say yes, but it should also include discussions on assemblers and linkers. But put a big sign up stating:
This is NOT a nuclear free zone, Treaspassers will be nuked!!!
Posted on 2001-06-22 13:59:00 by eet_1024
I learnt by tracing through code and still do. I look at it this way: If you build a nice bookshelf that you intend to market and I see it sitting in your front yard, I can build my own - I don't have to buy yours. If you build a fence around your yard and I own a ladder or can see through it, I can still build my own (but this isn't very moralistic). If I market my version of your shelf, I should go to jail - this is illegal. If I give away plans to your shelf, I'm a jerk - this could be illegal. If I give away copies of your shelf, I'm an a$$h01e. If I steal your shelf, I should goto jail. software = shelf software design = plans debugger/disassembler = ladder knowledge = see Nice metaphor, huh? While we still have the ability, I'd like to trace through code - even my own that I have source code for in whatever language. Code tracing will be a lot harder when there are 128 general registers! It's a shame the more advanced tools along these lines don't exist, and I don't think that this is because programmers know that these advanced tools will be used in the wrong way - it's because it's so hard to code really advanced debuggers/disassemblers. I don't think we need a separate place, per se. But just to make it abundantly clear that questions along these lines must be asked in a specific way. These are advanced tools, and require very advanced programmers (that are a little crazy ;))
Posted on 2001-06-22 15:50:00 by bitRAKE
I've written programs before that I don't have the source code to. Really, if I reverse someone's program so I can make a duplicate, that's wrong. However, what if I reverse someone's program to learn from it? Somewhere along the lines, I'm going to use something that I learned from it somewhere else. Perhaps even in a similar product. Well, I'll not discuss as I don't know how shady that is legally. Morally I don't have problems with it. I would not have known some of the better techniques I know had I not seen other people's crappy/excellent implentations. As for having a forum on the matter, I don't think we should but I'll not force my belief's on anyone. If the question is worded correctly, then it shouldn't matter what forum you're in. I've had great desire to know things which techniques are strongly questionable, but my intentions are purely ethical. I'd sooner just ask my question. But if there's even the slightest chance that a certain forum will *more likely* to attract a *certain* croud, I don't want to be associated with it if it's *more likely* malicious. I see many good reasons for a forum and good uses. I also, unfortunately, can see it wanting to be abused. Therefore, I probly wouldn't use it. I don't *want* people assuming something of me. At the same flip of the coin, if the forum is created and it proves itself worthy, I'll have no problems associating myself with it. _Shawn
Posted on 2001-06-22 16:02:00 by _Shawn
Yes vote... & nuke away at the "black hats" is you want. I agree with the systems software forum idea. i'm learning by tracing thru the assembled programs. things make MUCH more sense (while learning) when you're not shielded by those convienent macros. understanding at the low-level is a major goal of some in this forum... or at least me. Tiago: I had to give up that fight a long time ago. sorry to say that the word hacking has been usurped by the media. & "don't argue with a man who has a megaphone" is sound advice.
Posted on 2001-06-23 09:28:00 by rafe
(finally had enough sleep) Rafe is right. I were blind back then with the term "Hackers". But now when i looks at it, it's nothing more than the "food" i eat. Who created Linux? well, if you ask a group of hackers, they would say: "by Linus Tovard and with many help from hackers - around the world." and if you ask a programmers, they would say: "by Linus Tovard and with many help from others programmer all around the world." so what does that mean? that we want the best to be in ours. So that others will look at it and say "ah. so that's what a hackers can do." or "ah, so that's what a programmer can do." what about rules for being a REAL Programmer? they say you are not allow to cook! if you do, then you're not a real programer. oh, and they say Don't take a shower or don't cut your hair. Hacker don't have time for that. hmmm... what a strange rule to obey when you have your own rights and decision to make. The creator of C (a programming language) didn't considered themself as hacker, but the hackers community considered him so. listen to Rafe and move on.
Posted on 2001-06-23 09:49:00 by disease_2000
These are just tools that a programmer uses, not really any different than RC, MASM, LINK, WIN32HLP, or even your favorite text editor. I don't think they need a separate area, especially considering how "sensitive" they are. Maybe a "Tools and Utilities" area to cover questions on all of things that a Windows Assembly programmer uses? :cool:
Posted on 2001-06-23 17:57:00 by S/390
Here's the dedication of Dettmann & Wyatt's book DOS Programmer's Reference: "This book is dedicated to friends who were hackers before it became a dirty word; without them, much of the information in this book would not be as freely available as it is." I'll vote for a "tools and utilities" section. Like others of us, I've learned a ton by tracing other people's code. Crâcks are a problem, and w@rez (I love that word), but have you seen anyone actually disassemble and then clone any program above 20-30K?
Posted on 2001-06-24 04:43:00 by Larry Hammick
I dont need to get all polital with my reasons, they are simple: This forum is my relaxing 'news paper' to read every day after work. So I say ya, "pursue all intellectual interest"s this paper can offer to its readers :D NaN
Posted on 2001-06-25 00:53:00 by NaN
What if someone build a tool that would disassemble and then re-assemble windows programs (optimizing the assembler, of course)? Surely, that would be illegal because it would be functionally the same (beside less memory usage and a little kick in the pants)? This kind of program has always been seen as not only a difficult (impossible?) program to write, but even in the end not providing much improvement. I have always liked the difficult problems. :)
Posted on 2001-06-25 18:38:00 by bitRAKE
bitRake, Funnily enough, that's not illegal, running it is illegal, but writing it and owning it, even selling it isn't. Did you know that using a video recorder is illegal? You're not alowed to copy copyrighted material, but every time you tape something you are breaking the law...... Funny old life isn't it? umbongo
Posted on 2001-06-25 19:00:00 by umbongo
In the Criminal Code of Canada, there is law against possession of burglar's tools. I wonder if I'll ever go down for that, and how many of you I will meet in the joint :D.
Posted on 2001-06-25 21:15:00 by Larry Hammick
Crowbar, check Drill, check Screw driver, check What, I'm just redoing my deck.
Posted on 2001-06-25 22:01:00 by eet_1024
Hehe... Evil hacker / software pirate checklist: CD-RW - check. CloneCD - check. DeCSS - check. Modem - check. PGP - check. FireWall - check. Spy checklist: Miniature transmitter plans - check. Active noise cancellation machine - check. Remote microphone disabler plans - check. Burglar checklist: Crowbar - check. ("check" out, by the way :) Screwdriver - check. ... and yet I am not a criminal. (About the spy equipment... come on, which one of you wouldn't want those plans :D)
Posted on 2001-06-26 05:04:00 by Qweerdy
My email box has plenty of room for those plans Qweerdy .Posted on 2001-06-26 11:11:00 by bitRAKE