There are always two sides to any story, here is the other side.

Posted on 2002-02-25 10:07:36 by hutch--
Your article contents many wise and valuable thoughts.
Posted on 2002-02-25 10:55:37 by The Svin
Hi hutch

Wise words from someone who knows what he is talking about.:alright:

Posted on 2002-02-25 12:02:28 by KetilO
So, why don't you publish a book on programming Hutch--?
Your text and code always seem very readable to me!
Posted on 2002-02-25 12:08:58 by bitRAKE
the thing I learned, at the very least, after reading both is that this is how REAL MEN behave (or what real men do, real men are... whatever :grin: )

Posted on 2002-02-25 14:12:24 by pixelwise
Isn't that a response to the f0dder's article ? :rolleyes:
Posted on 2002-02-25 14:15:30 by JCP

I am trying to read your document, but on my machine it is a dark background with light blue characters.

Is there any way you could change the colors to like white background with dark characters? In other words it is hard to read on the screen.

I know I could print it out, but I am trying to read it on the screen.

This is not what I would call a big deal. :)



P.S. I decided just to print the article out. It is not fair for me to ask you to change the colors. I like the article very much by the way.
Posted on 2002-02-25 14:39:11 by cookj
Save the html file and edit it in order to change the colors...

PS to Hutch : Your article is very nice... I appreciate to see differents programmers strictly technical point of view about a subject... :alright:
Posted on 2002-02-25 14:52:13 by JCP
Isn't that a response to the f0dder's article ?

I said that because...
I appreciate to see differents programmers strictly technical point of view about a subject...

well? :)

Posted on 2002-02-25 15:00:10 by pixelwise
Let it die a graceful death.

Posted on 2002-02-25 15:10:10 by KetilO
Pixelwise: let say it is a "private joke" with the moderation team. ;)
Posted on 2002-02-25 15:21:58 by JCP
ok. keep it to yourselves then ;)

just kidding :grin: I admit I didn't really understand your first reply :D

Posted on 2002-02-25 15:30:26 by pixelwise
Originally posted by cookj
I am trying to read your document, but on my machine it is a dark background with light blue characters.
Is there any way you could change the colors to like white background with dark characters? In other words it is hard to read on the screen.

Download Opera :grin: It has a button to format any webpage on click to a nice black and white background.
Posted on 2002-02-25 16:43:14 by JimmyClif

Sorry about the colours but its a preference based on not getting eyestrain while composing text. I know there is a number of conditions that effect how things are seen, particularly on a computer screen, I have problems with large quantities of a certain shade of red.

Still, I hope that the article is of some use and that it addresses a number of things in a fair and dispassionate way.

Posted on 2002-02-25 17:56:45 by hutch--
Hutch: nice article.. btw: blue is a wonderful color, but it's been only 1.5 years that I operated my eyes, so.. why not use some more readable color (ok, it's too late for me, I'm blind again.. :grin: no, I just "hacked" the source and changed the colors ;-) but for others it would help)? :grin: (for completeness of information, I operated with lasik technique two otherwise sane eyes just to get rid of 3.00 dyottries of myophia each.. well, I'm extremely happy that I did it, and can advice everybody to do the same, absolutely.. with no doubts :-) ).

Now, if I can comment on the article itself, well.. by the way can I ask if it was written in response to Scali's article? ;-)

I wanted to comment on that too.. didn't have much time recently. So I'm writing this post to add my 2 eurocents worth (if I'm allowed and don't piss anybody off :-) ) on both articles.

Scali's one is well pondered and well stated.. find one person that couldn't fully agree with a statement like " the right tool for the right job". He seems to assume, though, I say *seem* because that's only a sensation I have, that normally people choose assembly not knowing much about programming in general. I'm of the idea that most (me for sure) choose assembly after having programmed in at least 10 other programming languages professionally, 1 of which being the own-designed and made; that have experience with a lot of CPU's and microcontrollers, experience as programmer and user in general, etc..
The fact that a lot of newbies, attracted by the myth behind machine language programming go around the board doesn't make ME think that the "normal" assembly programmer is culturally lower than any other HLL programmer. I'm very much convinced of the opposite, personally. But I have nothing against anybody, newbies included. Said that, I liked the article and there was nothing I couldn't agree on, in the substance. At the end Scali even stated something that convinced me that the above sensation was wrong: he described a typical roadmap.. which more or less even I followed. I started with Vic20 BASIC, immediately after I learnt 6502 assembly (hell, it was faster! I just couldn't resist ;) ), then switched to Amiga.. AmigaBasic, immediately after 68000 assembly (hell, it was faster! I just couldn't resist ;) ), but then wanting to make commercial games on the Amiga and other stuff, I also had to be productive.. and I just couldn't resist to make my own HLL language, which was really very much lowlevel as well, at the same time.. and nonetheless also mid-level, but also more high-level than most HLL languages (I call it best of all worlds :-) ). Then I was forced to switch to the PC, and learnt assembly and at the same time C and C++ (BASIC? no please), and used them a lot. After years, I really really really feel the need for my own language also on PC, and already have it, and is growing.. and is just wonderful. I makes me consider now C/C++ (even in OOP regard) as I considered BASIC until 2 years ago. Can we say "limited"? ;-)

As for advantages and disadvantages of languages, or advocating Java.. personal opinions deserve the maximum of respect. We're all unique, aren't we? We can debate on anything if we wish, we can disagree on anything, based on PERSONAL experiences and views. But if we are fair, we can see some generally true facts (although I don't advocate Java, and I don't consider assembly more buggy than e.g. C++, if I had to consider just my PERSONAL experience).

Hutch's article is well pondered and well stated as well.. really, how could one disagree with it? More than a set of opinions is a historical article, but so well written that it then shows also much technical content. It's smooth.. you're a good writer, Hutch.

I can't find one part of any of these two articles I can't agree with. So why there is this (apparent to me at least, dunno to you others) "opposition" between people of two different declared philosophies?

I don't know.. I just use the right tool for the right job, often I had to make my own tools because none of the standard ones satisfied all of my for-me-important advanced needs, and sure I was already applying many of Hutch's thoughts as well, but not in the form of standard DLL's (I know Hutch you love standard things ;) I try to use them, till I can't really stand them and must find/create something better and more useful), but with my own executable format that loads and dynamically links only what is really necessary.. this means the right code optimized for the right CPU in the PC it's running on, but also more generally only the code and data that is really necessary that moment.

What can I say.. we all rule, let's love each other instead of making flamewars.. :grin:

What I like most, more than C, C++, Java or Forth is my own programming language (VERY HLL, but also VERY lowlevel.. all available at once). Do I hurt anybody here? Do I deserve to get flamed? I don't think so.. I (try hard to, at least) respect others, and pretend as well respect. Discussions are ok but only until a certain point.. otherwise they become religious wars.

The "enemies", if there are any, are out of this board.. maybe even out of any programming board.

In short: Code and let code..

With respect,

PS: Hutch, behaving is a must.. but that censorship against X-Calibre is not a nice thing as well, that's for sure. We should all grow up together (and I place myself as the first one on the list that must grow up).. I repeat, behaving is a must though.
Posted on 2002-02-25 18:03:22 by Maverick
i know of a small application that will help everyone with the eyestrain. not only that its the best popup/ad remover made. its called the The Proxomitron and has alot of filters you can use to help you in many different ways. the filter im talking about in particualar changes the backgroup color of every page you visit to the color you set in the filter. right now the filter only has a black color(its just a tiny black gif) but you can make your own like a white one if you wish. its very easy to use it, just do a search on google it you want to download it. best of all its free.

btw hutch nice article
Posted on 2002-02-25 18:19:15 by smurf

I don't normally discuss forum policy but I know that you are a fair minded peson and you probably hold much the same view as I do about members treating each other with respect and exercising tolerance and common sense about technical differences.

I accepted the responsibility for banning X-Calibre/Scali/Gattling because he refused to respect our members and continued to abuse people who disagreed with him. Another one of our moderators warned him about the abuse and subsequently when he continued with that abuse, I personally asked him to moderate his disposition. His response was to continue the same abuse towards people who disagree with him.

I subsequently deleted his following abusive post which he in turn reposted so there was no other choice but to remove him from the forum. This is unfortunate because he is a competent programmer for his age and knows enough to help some of our members with some of the technical questions that are asked but no-one is so valuable that they have the luxury of abusing anyone they like on the basis that their opinions cannot be disagreed with.

We still have a unique forum where members can post ideas, ask questions, answer questions and generally get on together OK and I am willing to defend this against agressive elitism and bad manners that has started to creep into the forum on odd occasions.

Posted on 2002-02-25 18:49:11 by hutch--
For those of you with eyestrain problems, just click and drag your mousepointer across the text to highlight it for a COPY. Usually, the revered foreground/dark background of a copy highlight makes even the darkest text visible.

And you can even let your mousepointer sit near the bottom sl the text autoscrolls at your reading pace.

Nice article Hutch. With the world being reinvented every 15 minuits it's nice to remember there is always a history to everything, and those who forget are comdemed to repeat the same mistakes.

Posted on 2002-02-25 18:56:21 by Ernie
If your hard of viewing, you can CTRL + wheel to enlarge text (combined with highlighting, you should be able to read almost anything).
Posted on 2002-02-25 19:02:33 by bitRAKE
I have to agree with Hutch... just because we have enough power available to be sloppy with our programming doesn't mean we should do so... yielding logic/power to ease-of-use will turn into... well... what it Windows is now for example, the Windows API is layers upon layers of sloppy code. Building layers upon layers of sloppy code has turned XP into what it is now... XP is the prime result of this ideology.
Posted on 2002-02-25 21:59:45 by SpooK