Reading up on the pre release of XP, Microsoft appear to be tired of dealing with Sun Microsystem's endless litergation and have dropped their licenced version of the JAVA virtual machine from XP. The user has the choice of downloading a 6 meg VM if they want to run a java app from their browser.

This means that the writing is on the wall for JAVA as a language as it will now depend on Sun to market and support it across a range of platforms. It seems another lesson is about to be learnt from programmers who have wasted their time learning JAVA as it is about to be added to the scrapheap that languages like ADA and many other un-notables have been relegated to.

After 20 years of changes, assembler, basic, Pascal and C are still with us so it seems if you want to learn a language that has some chance of being useful to you in the future, start with one that has been around for a long time.

The only question I can see that is not addressed at the moment is what will be the next multiport pipedream ? :tongue:

Regards,

hutch@pbq.com.au
Posted on 2001-08-21 20:49:21 by hutch--
hutch, at universities across the world, a lot of very wacky languages
are being taught. Java seems to be a good beginners language,
because it has a lot of functionality built-in, and because so many
people seem to think OOP is all the rage (well, let them :)). I'm not
at the uni yet, but my friend there will go through probably five or
more weird languages... and I bet this has a purpose. You learn
strengths/weaknesses of each, sharpen your coding style, and
become able to learn just about any language pretty quickly.

So sure, other languages have their uses. If nothing else, to make
us hate them, so we will enjoy our preferred languages even more.

Just remember that even though java might look dead, it's ideas
are FAR from dead. Do I need to say more the DOT NET?
Posted on 2001-08-21 22:03:56 by f0dder
Java's design was based on the promise of code portability. Write it once, use it anywhere.

A great work of software is always a dance between developer (well, today mostly a team of developers) and the end user, anticipating the needs of the user, responding to them with the least fuss.

Now in walks Java. I just never got why so many 'hot shot' programmers lined up to sell their souls to this new god of programming.

Java isn't designed to serve the needs of users. Nor is it designed to serve the developer.

Java is designed top serve the needs of the developer's manager. It answers the need to 'write it once, use it anywhere.' No more painfull porting to other platforms.

Sounds like an OOPs to me for sure.

Let it rest in peace.
Posted on 2001-08-21 22:28:20 by Ernie
I personally never saw much of a use for java. The idea is great, of writing code once and being able to use it on any platform....or can you? I was always insure of how java worked exactly regarding using it on any platform. First of all, doesn't the user need java installed? Also, does an applet need to be viewed through a web browser, or is there another method or running an applet? As far as needing Java installed, isn't that pretty much the same thing as having a runtime?

Sure, it has the advantage of cross-platform compatibility, but no one seems to actually want to make things in it. I've sort of wondered why it didn't at least catch on more than it did. I started to learn the very basics of Java in school for a bit, and I thought it was trash. It was TOO OOP for me, and lacked any sort of appeal.

Anyone heard of D? http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html
It's only an idea right now, but I somehow feel it'll never be what it's intended to. But if it was, would you use it?

My final thoughts: perl rules :)
Posted on 2001-08-21 23:00:36 by vcv
ByteCode is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOW !

:tongue:

Jp
Posted on 2001-08-21 23:29:56 by JP?
I wasn't going to comment, however, read the explanaitions of java's niche in the holy war.

And make sure to read what I said about using java for 'native' windows use!! my my.
Posted on 2001-08-21 23:39:45 by -T-
The only write once run anywhere that I know of is an ASCII text file. :) I think Homer - I mean Ernie, hit the nail on the head some what. I did a little Java once and the hardest part was remembering all the built-in stuff - I tended to overcode stuff that already existed. I wasn't at a Uni, but a friend of mine was. He asked me to help him with his homework and I created another bignum class. :) Mine was a little simpler. Needless to say all the teacher wanted was for him to use the existing class - which I didn't know anything about. :) I do the same thing with windows API stuff. I guess it's a good thing to be accustom to having a great deal of code support coming from all directions.
Posted on 2001-08-22 00:21:43 by bitRAKE
It appears that proper use of Java is like being fluent in Chinese. You have to know of every character to express you thoughts without inventing new words. How many classes exist? I'm sure its more than the number of characters in the Chinese charater set!

The truth behind Java:
   You really do spend less time coding, but the time gained is used in finding the proper class (that is supposed to already exist) to handle you problem.
Posted on 2001-08-22 03:36:48 by eet_1024
Hutch:

Okay,

First of all I doubt anyone has ever made a program made to run on the Microsoft Virtual Machine why? It sucks and Visual J++ already failed and was added to the scrap heap.

Java programs run on the sun virual machine or Java Runtime Envronment. In other words nobody cares about that 6mb download, it is useless in terms of java anyway.

I have windows XP and have built and run many Java programs. Why is there no problem? I downloaded the JRE from sun.

If and when you ever run a java Aplication it will be running on your JRE not you MS piece of garbage.

Why can I still run these programs in IE? When I go to my page a window comes up asking to intall a plugin.

Yes Java is in trouble, but not for that reason. Java has been surviving under your condition for years.


Had to let it out. How you taunt me:)
Posted on 2001-08-22 11:15:46 by -T-
It appears that proper use of Java is like being fluent in Chinese. You have to know of every character to express you thoughts without inventing new words.


Nothing closer to the truth. How come there are at least 5 ways to open and read a file ??
I always thought Java was the panacea and that i was the obtuse one.. Thanks god i was wrong.
Posted on 2001-08-22 11:31:53 by latigo
It is completly natrul to think that when you are new to a language.

However, you get used to it obviouly. I have the same problem with C++ and new API's.

I think java is much more consistant than all the infernal api's flying around. Some classes, some imports some god knows what.

What do you do when you don't want to memorize somthing in programing? You make a function. Same is said for java. Just make a package that you can use with your programs that include simple things like IO based on the existing methods.
Posted on 2001-08-22 11:44:26 by -T-
T, you seem to be defending java, so I'll ask you this:
Give me a situation where Java has been used for something more than an example, or game. It is rare to find something useful that was made in Java. Why? Maybe most developers feel the same way as me and others that have posted here. Java is the most tedious and inconsistent language I have attempted to learn.

It is overkill in terms of simplicity. For my APCS class in high school, the teacher wanted to teach us to make a simply i/o program via console. She couldn't, because she had no idea how. A classmate and I looked it up, and soon found out that it more than a simple import and function call. You had to create a class or two, among other things, just to write to the console window.

For me, it is mostly the feeling I have while using the language. How comfortable I feel with it. I happen to feel the same way about delphi/pascal that I do Java. When I try using it, I just feel like I'm wasting my time and/or get sick of it.
Posted on 2001-08-22 12:03:53 by vcv
VCV, I refer you to the holy war for examples of java's uses.

Other than that I am not here to defend java against people who refuse to even consider what I say. Your judgement is to premature. Also you will find an answer for why you have to do so many things just to open a file if you think how assembly works. The power of that is you can use the same objects to open everything from a file to a joystick. You start off at a primitive general IO class and work up to its specific purpose building on it with other specific classes.

If you can't understand that I would be very suprised since we are in a ASM forum. That is powerful, you should understand.

When you want it simple AGAIN make your own specific IO functions just like they did for C++.

I can't understand what you say in your simplicity paragraph as it seems to contridict itself?
Posted on 2001-08-22 16:04:50 by -T-
Heh, sorry, I'm reading it over now and don't understand it either. I just don't like how Java is setup, and how you use it, that's all.
Posted on 2001-08-22 16:25:03 by vcv
I have previously mentioned an old joke from a friend of mine which goes along the lines,

Q. What does a C programmer say to an ADA(tm) programmer ?

A. I will have onions with my french fries please.

I guess the language you learn depends where you want to end up, if "parkin' cars 'n pumpin' gas" is where you want to be, waste your life and time on stuff that will not survive but if you want to be around in programming for some time, learn something that will still be there in the future.

The great divide is writing your own code if you need it or being dependent on code written by someone else that you can't fix. More than 20 years down the track, ASM, Basic, C and Pascal are still there so if you learn a long term language, you will have something to sell in the future.

The dominance of x86 machines and M$ operating systems has achieved what multiport code has never come near, a massive range of available software that will run on an equally massive range of machines.

I am of the view that JAVA and JIT are just part of the noise from Sun Microsytems to try and do what Microsoft have already done, establish a monopoly that suits its own financial interests.

May this aspiration and its trappings rest in peace. :tongue:

Regards,

hutch@pbq.com.au
Posted on 2001-08-22 20:32:47 by hutch--
I know for some reason people think I am comparing .net to java. I am not. I keep saying they are for differn't purposes thus un comparable.

I agree with you hutch that java will die.

Now :

>if "parkin' cars 'n pumpin' gas" is where you want to be, waste
>your life and time on stuff that will not survive but if you want to
>be around in programming for some time, learn something that
>will still be there in the future.

Since I am the only one who knows anything about java that has dared to speak up I take that you emply that I have wasted my time and I am going to flunk out of university not get a job.

All I can say is what? Java is just one language in my toolbox. I for one I own my own copy of VS.net. I have been using it since April.
Thats like some VB programmer waltzing in here and saying:
"ASM is obsolete now, do you expect it to come back anytime soon. Why would you even bother using it, you will be pushing carts at the grocery store for the rest of your life if you keep this up"
Shush, just think it over. Exactly. I for one expect to be using Java when I get to university, also hopefully ASM. That gives me a huge advantage. As in I don't excpect to use .net proffecionally for at least 4 years.

By what you imply about .net ASM will a waste of time, unless of course a big emp pulse destroys all electronics and we need to start from scratch:) ASM is a hobby and a learning tool. Well, when MS takes over at least it will be. It is a very good optimising tool at the moment. But I doubt your boss will let you use it for the sake of his/her sanity.


And unlike most basic programmers I think we all here have the intelligance to pick up langauges as we need them. "It aint rocket science". Again, I learned java with two things the Java language specification thing I downloaded and the examples that the JDK came with. Trail and error. The first java book I got was given to me during last school year, by then I found it only good for quick refrence on specific API's. It was the easiest and most rewarding thing I have ever done. Not that I expect to use it all my life or anything, it just taught me good design and heavy OOP. When I first used VS.net I had maybe a 5 minute learning curve thanks to this. I started churning out OO C# no problem. Then I was able to use that knowledge to get movinb on VB.net.

Maybe its not the same to you hutch depending on your stage of life but whatever I pick up is valuable to me. I don't care if its C++ or how to make a bat file:)
I like java because it is a beutiful language in my eyes. It may be slow on windows but serves its perpose well. I dual boot linux and still use Netscape when I can. I appreciate that I can run my programs in these settings.

Also, name a better platform to deploy your multi browser apps on before netsape and mac bit the dust? It did some good in its time and you can't dis agree. Although it is not useless in some markets now it will slowly die, that is no doubt.

Hopefully this is the end of this debate, is has grown out of its usefullness quite fast. I don't plan on posting in this thread again unless of course someone has somthing reasonable to say. I am all for this but it seems like people are just throwing things out without even considering what they mean. Please don't bother baiting me.


:grin:

Thanks for understanding.

T
Posted on 2001-08-22 22:30:23 by -T-
You start off at a primitive general IO class and work up to its specific purpose building on it with other specific classes.

-T-:
   Does that mean:
• a) Reinvent the wheel to accomplish your needs
• b) Learn some new Chinese characters

Also I browsed through the OOP why? (and OOP, here's why) and did not find any specific cases were Java was used to solve a real world problem. Have you ever solved a real world problem with Java. Can anyone list anything useful being solved with Java? The only thing that comes to mind is the yahoo instant messaging; but I've never seen it.

Phil:
   Why did you write a non-Java chat client for yahoo?
Posted on 2001-08-22 22:32:09 by eet_1024
Just so no one gets offended:
   This is the Crusades; don't take anything to the extreme (like going postal cuz a language is going to die), and we're all attacking the languages, not the people.
Posted on 2001-08-22 22:36:33 by eet_1024

Just so no one gets offended:
   This is the Crusades; don't take anything to the extreme (like going postal cuz a language is going to die), and we're all attacking the languages, not the people.


Good point:) Although I am totally misunderstood, read last messege.
Posted on 2001-08-22 22:43:23 by -T-
I was writing the last post regarding Java when you made your post.
Posted on 2001-08-22 22:55:19 by eet_1024