Now, I think I've got everyone's attention! I'm definitely not against Assembly in fact it is my favorite. I would love to be called a ASM coder than any other (C++, VB... coder). I've seen people writing program's in Win32ASM but very few are used by themselves or others 'coz it doesn't have all the function found on other Freeware/shareware coded in C++ or VB. Thus it gives a chance to people writing in MSC++ or MSVB to laugh at ASM coders. Huh.. Assembly... it's HISTORY! I know it takes a lot of time to write a program like UltraEdit in Win32ASM but it's not impossible. What we are lacking is, enough tutorials, guides, help, RAD IDE and most important MAN-POWER. What is the use of that knowledge which can't benefits mankind? If we write a program and we know how much time and hard work we have put into it and still no one is using the program, will we feel good? Don't you think, it's useless? It's just like "You are giving a juicy bone to a cat." It's so sad that about more than 270 registered users are visiting the forum and few are voting or replying when asked for suggestion. Why..? Don't you want our ASM community to be recognized through out the I-NET and don't you want MSC++ coders or other to think thousand times before saying anything about ASM or even make them think that ASM Coders are there and can write even better program that they have coded using C++. I'm also on the list who are not giving anything but I've started on my part. Although I can give only an-hour-per-day to computer but still I'll write something. It may not be very big but still it will be able to help some people "Something is better than nothing." So what can we do? Here are few points that I'm suggesting and I think everybody will have something in their mind to suggest. So please please please please please... suggest. 1)I think anyone how have written a program(could be a simple one) should upload it on Iczelion's site with the description on what it is? and how it will help other rather than storing at your HardDisk. 'coz if you store it at your HD then it won't help anyone but if it's on a website then may be it'll help at least a single person. 2)Just posting a source code won't help a newbie, if you have time you should write a tutorial on how you code it or may be few lines so that newbie could get some idea. 3)People you have experience should write tutorials. At least one or two per month. It doesn't have to cover whole things may be a mini-tutorial. 4)I think there should be a group project(running for 1 to 3 months or giving it sufficient time) where anyone having knowledge will write some code. For eg: A complete CD-Player which is no less than a Commercial one. You may ask why group project? I know you can code a CD-Player but if you work in group then it'll definitely be better one than that was done by you alone. It will finished in less time and some of you will have enough time to write a complete tutorial on "How To Code A CD-Player in Win32ASM". You don't have to write whole tutorial, you can write only the part you have coded and later someone will compile it in to one complete tutorial. 5)There are many things, which I don't remember right now or it may be in your mind. Please comment or at least say something. Assembly is the BEST! Thanks, e-nigma
Here is my view on the subject. I think the idea is nice but it will ultimately fail. Why? Time and money. When there is a lack of time (due to children, work, children, life, children, hobbies, children, sleep, children) you find it harder and harder to put time into those things that you enjoy but cannot justify because of some other important concern. Does this mean it does not happen, NO, just less frequently then wanted. I mention money because as much as some people like to discover and share without reward, there eventually comes a point where the return does not outweigh the cost. I would like to consider myself altruistic, but even I come to a point where I say, "I am not getting paid for this and people are expecting it from me!". I think that everyone should praise those who have written the guides/tutorials that are currently available, as well as the programming environments and these all come free of charge, but not free of time. Many people have spent many hours just trying to make ASM the best it can be, but also remember that it is not the simplest because of its low level. Does this make it hard, NO but it does make it more logical. Some people actually do have a hard time grasping the inner workings of the computer, does this make them stupid, HE** NO!!. It is just not one of their strengths. Should we expect all "experts to just dedicate their free time to writing guides and tutorials, NO. That actually defeats the whole discovery portion of life. When are these "experts" expected to make their new discoveries. I think it more important to write when you discover something you think is new to you. Does it matter if someone else has discovered it, NO. You may have discovered it differently. That is what needs to be written. Even the master can learn from the student. What has been needed and has been successfully created is a central repository for these guides/tutorials/tools and it is ICZELIONS website. I use that as my launching pad to discovery. In the long road, should we care about other language users who think ASM coding is the way of the dinosaur, WHO CARES!!!!. I believe a true programmer has at least 3 languages that are known to him/her and can be used to create programs without having to resort to language manuals or even on-line help, except for the more estoric natures of the language. A carpenter does not just use a hammer. He has a tool belt. Programmers should have a language belt. You use the right language for the right job. That is my two cents worth.
Well, it's a nice dream. Not gonna happen. Trying to get people to bond together in here is futile. Everyone has their own ideas, their own opinions, their own way of doing things and refuse to be swayed by others. Many people think they can do it better than others. I think that's just natural programmer competition, however. Not just Assembly programmers. There's nothing wrong in what you said, it all sounds good. Here's where the problem lies: Return on Investment. When doing it free, there is little return. Some people who have time to research things out and devote will do it. Others won't. Me, for example. I started to write an IDE because we lack one. I wanted to learn assembly and be more productive, not always having to worry about command switches and whatever. Well, everyone is writing an IDE. Of all the projects that are currently open, none of them is remotely close to what I feel will help *my* productivity. Besides, if one did, I would write one anyway, just for the educational experience. So, I posted early and now I have (it keeps growing) about 700 unique visits a day last I checked 1.5 weeks ago. I also get many many emails from people telling me to hurry up and release something -- more emails than I can keep up with. Well, my point is that now I'm beginning to feel pressured into completing it, like everyone expects it of me. At first, I was doing it of the good of my heart, but now everyone seems to expect it as if I owe it to them... what am I getting in return? Not that I need anything, but among all my other daily activities, it's hard to devote the time necessary. You see, I'm not just throwing it together. I'm a professional programmer, and I have a fettish with quality-grade software. Therefore, this will have all the elements you would expect from a well-funded project. Now, about bonding together. I've tried on several occasions to become involved with other people's "Visual Assembler" projects and on several occasions tried to get people involved in mine. In the end, I strongly feel if you want it done you have to do it yourself. No one wants to let me help them, or help me. Everyone has their own ideas and God forbid that other heathen should corrupt the purity of *my* original "Visual Assembler" and help me make it better when I can do just fine *on my own*. That's the problem. Someone needs to step off their pedestal and think more about the community and who their trying to help rather than themselves. That's the same attitude the big corporations have. While, I'll admit, money isn't the motivating factor here, it is what's preventing people from actually doing better. Lets face it, write an IDE or other program/tuturial in your spare time for such and such quality, or be offered $1,000 to do it and all of the sudden, you have more time to devote, better quality, better documentation... etc. The bottom line is that those who contribute will contribute what they can. I prefer not to have people "expect" things of me. I've offered to help, I've asked for help and less than 3 people have been willing to help me with any of my stuff. At the same time hundreds expect it of me to "hurry" up and finsh something. I'll release when I'm good and ready and when I feel it's ready for release. Sure, it'll take longer, but it'll be higher quality than if I "push it out the door" at all people's beckoning. Then there's those who don't contribute. If they don't contribute now, they won't later. There's 280+ people registered and many come here only looking for source code, perhaps cracking information, or whatever. No matter how good the quality of our software, those who won't participate when it is not high quality, won't when it is. Fact of the matter. It's sad to say, but it's true. That's why IDE projects come and go. That's why they get heavily updated in the beginning, then time drags and and before you know it, fewer and fewer updates. Sometimes they get so complicated that it's hard to update
Well, I think if Iczelion would not mind, making Iczelion's website a central repositor would be an awesome idea. I have dozens of asm websites in my favorites; but, it's hard to get a little bit from one website, and another peace of information from another. It would be great if we could use Iczelion's website (given a structured layout) to dump informtion, code, examples, tutorials, etc. That would not only hjelp beginners but pros as well. You allready have the best asm forum website, why not make it a full-service one: Forums, Code, Tutorials, Tools, FAQ's, etc. There is site for Delphi developers known as the Delphi Super Page that has a huge respository of code for Delphi developers which is known throughout the world and any serios Delphi Developer knows about. The help of the Delphi community is tremendous. Why can't have the same kind of meeting-point at Iczelion's site? If he agrees, this site could be truly "the best asm site" and starting point for ANY asm programmer. I know this would mean more work for Iczelion and I would be willing to spend some of my free time (the very little I have left) to help out. I maybe just dreaming, it's just, it would be soo helpful to soo many poeple. That's why I want to help; cause, it will help me as well. Plus, it's fun to be able to contribute without having to worry so much about the darn buck. I want to help the asm comunity, my IDE is just one small peace in the puzzle. A central website such as Iczelion's is just plain awesome! We should take advantage of it. Iczelion, hope you don't mind me suggesting these things! :)
I agree with RainBird _Shawn
Maybe I'm getting caried away a little bit; but, I really think we can help out on Iczelion's site. Here are some ideas on a theoratical "code-snipets" section:
There are lot's of other things including a FAQ section and ideas that could be done. Just some thoughts about it... This message was edited by rainbird, on 4/3/2001 1:18:20 PM
General Database Special OO Micellaneous --------------- ----------------------- ----------------------- --------------- ------------ Assembler DB-General Component Writing COM+ IB-Objects Files Operation Database-Components Reporting ActiveX BDE Graphic Database-SQL Multimedia OLE Algorithm GUI DB-Special Engine Communication MIDAS Scientific System ADO/OLE-DB Internet / Web CORBA OO-related Shell API Database Others XML Others Multi-Tier Win API API Games Dialogs
well I proposed a similar thing sometime ago: a code repository that could be updated via the web. Automatically updateable so that you'd always get the latest version. Kind of like the offline browser. Problem is that such a thing needs people reviewing code send for submission. So you'd need some sort of board of review to judge entries.
Hiro, There is an excellent software (free) called phpNuke that has an awesome array of features and is being used among the open source community. Take a look at http://phpnuke.org/ and you see what I mean. It would allow for 100% web administration. This way, Iczelion would not have to be bothered if he decides to spread the burden. Only problem is that it requires php and MySQL on the hosting server. As fas as I can see, Iczelion's site is running on Windows Host Server. I'm planning to use phpNuke on my site. :)
E-nigma, some good suggestions however the following I don't agree with. 2)Just posting a source code won't help a newbie, if you have time you should write a tutorial on how you code it or may be few lines so that newbie could get some idea. 3)People you have experience should write tutorials. At least one or two per month. It doesn't have to cover whole things may be a mini-tutorial. I don't believe that good programmers should just start writing tutorials, I believe those who want tutorials should ask for them. I personally find that unless someone specifically asks me for help I find it very hard to get motivated to write anything. I think I just need to know that what I do will be used, even if only by one person, just once I know I'm happy to help. I think people should start e-mailing others with questions. Anyone who doesn't want an e-mail can just say so, I'm sure the people on this board would be respectful enough not annoy anyone and if you don't trust people then just don't give out your e-mail. If I were to get a request for help and I felt I could then I would be happy to, otherwise its just a question of replying and letting them know I can't. If I were sucessful in helping them then it would be very easy to convert the corespondences into a tutorial, in most cases it would just be a case of cut and paste. Also I feel that people should get more specific with questions, I recently posted up a resquest for suggests for FPU tutorials but while I was grateful for the replies I felt they were too general, I really wanted very specific problems to solve, not projects. That said, in this case one of the suggestion was a 3D maths tutorial and as I've been looking for a excuse to do something in that area I jumped at it. By the way if anyone's is waiting, the second tutorial its almost finished, although I've yet to get any feedback on the first, which is dissapointing as I can't judge if its clear enough or helpful.
I am slightly bemused at the general drift of this posting, the history of assembler has always been based on the need to do something that could not be done easily or well in another language but this assumed the knowledge of at least another language. The expectation by anyone that another person owes them something is misplaced, especially in a complex area like assembler. Its only a couple of years ago that assembler ws so hard to find that you had to do it all yourself yet with the enormous increase in the amount of 32 bit code available, the demand for "tutorials" prewritten for people who are not willing to do the work in learning how to write assembler just keeps increasing. It needs to be kept in mind that assembler is not kiddies stuff, its basically for programmers who already know how to write software and are willing to do the work to learn it properly. It may be in fashion to write small fast code but no-one is goin to do it for you. There is a broad and easy world of big slow buggy code out there catering for people who don't want to learn how things work but just slop code around on forms. Trying to get that system going in assembler is not going to happen, the code type is not suitable for slopping it around. Iczelion has written a very good set of tutorials, Test Department has a heap of well written example code on his site and the number of reference examples in MASM32 numbers about 50 at the moment as well as heaps of other code by many other authors. You may be able to follow like sheep in VB, C++, JAVA, Delphi and anything else but in assembler you must be original to properly understand the code that you write. Expecting to find it pre-packed for you is a mistake, the range of variation is enormous and that makes it that much more powerful. Regards, firstname.lastname@example.org
Another discussion on "ASM against HLL" war. Why can't they live in harmony? Perhaps it's the feeling that someone who can code in asm is somehow "superior" to others who do not. That's simply not true. Computer language has its pros and cons. ASM is by no means the BEST language for everything. The old saying is still true today: use the appropriate tool for appropriate job. ASM is my preferred language but it doesn't mean I have to use it for everything. I still use VB/VBA/VBScript in my everyday's life. Sometimes I mix and match VB and asm together, each compliments each other. ASM conforms to my thinking process and I feel comfortable to know why my program behaves like it does. That's why I use it. Examine your motivation for using ASM:don't let your emotion carry you away :)
I'm not against any language and I understand that every language has some advantage over the other. I love Assembly and I put forwarded my little suggestion. I can see a vast difference between the trouble that one had to do to learn ASM few years ago and now. Now, it's quite simple (not very) to learn ASM 'coz of people like Iczelion, hutch, Hiro to name a few. But I think it still can be made more simple but it takes time. So many people want to help but so little time they can devote. I don't blame any one. But let's hope for the best. thanks, e-nigma
Nicely said Iczelion. Personally, I would like to see a code repository for assembly language programers. XML could be used to wrap the code and documentation as well as describe the type of code fragment that it contains. Assembly language programmers don't need to know every instruction that's in their programs - can't we blindly use the code of others with a little faith - this is what HLL programmers do everyday! This certainly would require a framework of people and softare to make this happen. IHMO
To everyone: don't give me any credit here. I know I'm not more then, if even, a moderate ASMer. I just try to help to make it accessible. All the credit goes to (in no apparant order): Iczelion, Hutch, Ernie, Bogdanontanu, TheSvin and many, many others. Thanks for sharing your knowledge guys. To hutch: I'd like to point out the difference between a good strong codebase to rely on, our own ASL (Assembler Standard Library :D) as started by the masm32 package, and 'point and click'. Sometimes it's nice to be able to include a thoroughly tested routine in your program of which you know that it's better then your own or that helps in getting faster to the core of other things. Do not reinvent the wheel for production purposes, I guess. I hope I haven't misinterpreted your answer above. to e-nigma: it takes time and sometimes money. If you wish to help, just ask people if they need help and you might find someone that happily accepts your extended hands :) You might wish to ask mammon_ ;)
I agree strongly with Iczelion about use other languages. For example, I'm coding a CAD program in ASM to design dams, tunnels, etc. I use a lot VBA for AutoCAD to design simple structures because there is no requisition for speed and I code very fast in VBA, look: method of Drawing, AddLine(startpoint,endpoint) see? easy! speedy! I didn't need speed to draw a line of a beam or a arc of a tunnel. To calculate a tunnel with 20,000 points I really need speed!! for this reason, times ago, I started studing ASM. The problem is that I liked very much ASM because I now what the processor and the OS are doing. I intend to create a 3D modeling program for dams and tunnels all in ASM. Indeed, I'll give the code for others ASMers and I'm thinking to write tutorials. This is what I'll do to to pay all that I learned whith Iczelion, Hutch, Randall Ryde, etc. Good luck for all ASMers! :)
Hiroshimator, The FoxWikis is under continuous peer review, there isn't a formal "review comittee", anyone may change/edit/delete most anything, or add additional content. http://fox.wikis.com/wc.dll?Wiki~FoxForumWiki If anyone wants to try this, "Newcomers see CategoryLearningWiki. Practice in the WikiSandBox. " The Wikis concept works as long as everyone behaves in a responsible manner. For the others, or goofs, good backups and archiving of deleted content. Far less trouble than a formal peer review comittee. It would be possible to mimic the wikis on this message board by picking a topic and publicizing the username and password for that topic, then anyone could edit the original text.