I am not sure is it possible to sell VC without assembler.

Hm, as far as I remember, masm is not included in VC. VC does support
inline asm though, and you can get masm from the VC processor update
pack. But VS6 didn't come with masm... as far as I remember.


AFAIK, they also update TASM with new versions of Delphi.

I don't think so... I could theoretically install delphi 6 and have
a look though :).


Most of the last versions of M$ software is overbloated. Most of people don't need hundreds of function provided by it. But they are caught by wheel of Microsoft... khmm... sorry wheel of Sansara...

Well, talk to programmers and "technical" persons, and they'll hate
all the extra cruddy fluff. Me included. Talk to regular end-users
(I happen to know a lot of these ;)), and they LOVE that they can
now "easily create audio CDs" in XP. They *love* that "everybody" uses
the crappy MSN messenger. Et cetera. This is sad...

Wheel of Sansara? Sounds like something I should look up :).


GREAT THANKS! I'm so happy that they gave me a chance to write something for their OS. It's normal that OS-author provides information. And: may be it is Microsoft who must be happy that I code for this OS.

It's true that they're of course happy that you code applications -
there wouldn't be much windows support if you had to pay a big license
fee just to get an application on the market :). But I don't know how
common it is to give such detailed driver development stuff as microsoft
does... *shrug*.


I heard according DCMA (or ...? ) it is illegal. Of course, it is a problem of US-ppl, but AFAIK Europe is also about to copy some strange American laws.

Well, DCMA is mostly targetted at "circumventing a protection". But it does
seem to aim pretty broadly... haven't read the law text myself, and frankly
I'm not too much of a wiz at law text.

Now, I don't really like microsoft all that much, but things could have been
worse. Consider a 100% object oriented API, that wouldn't be too fun to use
when coding in pure assembler. And it's not like microsoft have tried to make
it hard to use assembly, they just didn't document how to do it (rationalizing
that most people don't see the need for pure assembly programs.)
Posted on 2002-01-20 18:33:50 by f0dder

Hm, as far as I remember, masm is not included in VC. VC does support
inline asm though, and you can get masm from the VC processor update
pack. But VS6 didn't come with masm... as far as I remember.

It means that I was slightly incorrect, but nevertheless they included MASM in update.

I don't think so... I could theoretically install delphi 6 and have
a look though.

Last version AFAIK - 5.3.

Well, talk to programmers and "technical" persons, and they'll hate
all the extra cruddy fluff. Me included. Talk to regular end-users
(I happen to know a lot of these), and they LOVE that they can
now "easily create audio CDs" in XP.

Yeah, it's cool, by in my humble opinion, people often talk that they after they buy something, because they spend a lot of money. I also know a lot of "regulsar end-users". Some of them installed XP, some not, some installed and got rid off it. Though a lot of installed, because it has new interface, new built-in apps...
But if they will have to pay > 10$ for it, I am more than sure most part of them will use previous version of this OS. As one guy said looking at the disk with XP in CD-shop: "2$ for this? Damn, it is not worth this money" :grin:.

They *love* that "everybody" uses
the crappy MSN messenger. Et cetera. This is sad...

Yes, you absolutely right. Crowd is mad :).

Wheel of Sansara? Sounds like something I should look up :).

According to Buddhizm it is a wheel of our births and deathes. If one want to become free he must get out of it, but it is easier to say it, than actually do it.

It's true that they're of course happy that you code applications -
there wouldn't be much windows support if you had to pay a big license
fee just to get an application on the market. But I don't know how
common it is to give such detailed driver development stuff as microsoft
does... *shrug*.

Yes, they gave a lot of information, may be because nobody can be perfectly evil :grin:.

Well, DCMA is mostly targetted at "circumventing a protection". But it does
seem to aim pretty broadly... haven't read the law text myself, and frankly
I'm not too much of a wiz at law text.

As I understood according to it you can't, for example, disassemble someone's code, if it's owner didn't want it. I think it's bad, because nobady will haven't an opportunity (at least legal) to check what this code really contain.

Now, I don't really like microsoft all that much, but things could have been
worse.

Yes, you are right here, though I don't think it is users' and coders' credit, not Microsoft.

Consider a 100% object oriented API, that wouldn't be too fun to use
when coding in pure assembler.

Yes, it would not be too good, but it's not a real problem. Good macroses or built-in support of object would fix it.

And it's not like microsoft have tried to make
it hard to use assembly, they just didn't document how to do it (rationalizing
that most people don't see the need for pure assembly programs.)

"He don't try to kill me, he just stick knife into my throat." :). Ok, you are right here, but nevertheless they try to lame coders and users up, IMHO. Am I not right?
Posted on 2002-01-21 04:06:30 by Aquila
How discussions can get too much away from the original post ideea :(
Posted on 2002-01-21 15:33:42 by BogdanOntanu

How discussions can get too much away from the original post ideea :(

Yeah... in fact :( was going to write it soon..
Posted on 2002-01-21 16:08:33 by Maverick
BTW: so I post off-topic too.. how do I change the text "Code Warrior" which is displayed under my avatar?

Thx,
Mav
Posted on 2002-01-21 16:11:05 by Maverick
You can't. But if you ask hiroshimator nicely, he might change it.
Who knows :).

Anyway, you could always start a new thread on this subject.
Some threads tend to get polluted - not much to do about it.
Posted on 2002-01-21 16:18:04 by f0dder
Hi all,
To finally write something in topic with this thread, I've found this page, which maybe is a good starting point:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/graphics/hh/graphics/ddraw_54tj.asp

In general the MSDN seems to contain a lot of useful info, and in another thread I've read that the online-MSDN contains nothing less than the subscribers' MSDN, it contains even something more.

Greets,
Maverick
Posted on 2002-01-23 09:24:10 by Maverick
Speaking of low level, I have an idea as to what Maverick is talking about in regards to banging on the hardware. A few problems occur there with commercialisation of everything. The true concepts as to how a computer operates is being lost in this windows savvy day and age. In fact what appears bigger and better in an awe inspiring way can also be a nightmare. Back when it was strictly done at the hardware level, registers and timers were used at the hardware level and could be creativly adapted to the desired task or goal you wanted to perform. As far as algorithms go, you created them on the fly and added them to your arsonal of programming tools or routines. Point taken algorithms are process implemented whether through mathematics, or a subroutine. Many miss how mathematically precise the assembly technique is. Regarding any processor or architechture.
Posted on 2004-02-14 23:16:06 by Gryphon
As a last thought, the abstract layers such as fuction calls throughout C and alot of the high level assembler, never truely are understood unless analysed. Analysing anothers function to determine what you want to do is time consuming. Thus programming creativity is hampered by this.
Posted on 2004-02-14 23:21:13 by Gryphon
Hi ! Maverick :)
just for info.
Study very attentively this compiler Linoleum, its possibilities and his source code on this page.
His author made an excellent work.
You have access to all the memory system and you are a boss of all the operations made in this memory.
Programming is returned to the programmer .........
Programming very close to the assembler.
Without taking into account versions different from Windows....

http://anywherebb.com/linoleum.html

Here a small game programmed with this compiler, just to illustrate.
Friendly...Gges
Posted on 2004-02-15 07:39:41 by Asmgges